_Canvass_ > "examine, pore over, search"
Joel S. Berson
Berson at ATT.NET
Fri Apr 18 23:04:37 UTC 2014
At 4/18/2014 03:52 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>Joel, the context makes it pretty clear that he Ulloa was "exploring" the
>geography rather than inquiring of people in search of information (though
>he may have done some of that too).
>
>And in any case, he was not searching the area for some specific, material
>thing like a corpse.
>
>There are at least four practical lexicographical questions involved,
>clearly of little interest to the general reader. Semantically, does the
>2014 example carry essentially the same meaning as that of 1652? Second (if
>it does), is the current example some kind of survival or essentially an
>accident? Third, is the 2014 sense different and common enough to include
>in the OED? Fourth, if so, where to put it: under a new numbered definition
>or as a nuance of 4b? Or perhaps as "4f"?
>
>Fortunately I'm not going to mess with these questions further, except to
>say that I'd replace def. 4b with the more precise phrase "To explore (an
>area)." *If* OED also has cites that speak of a physician "canvassing" a
>patient for some sign of disease, I'd specify the typical sort of object:
>"To examine (a person) physically." (The inclusion of "'investigate" might
>be gratuitous in any case.) If both nuances applied, I'd separate them by a
>semicolon.
How about "interrogate" -- or is that too postmodern? :-)
Joel
>I'd define the 2014 usage separately as "to search (a place) for something
>specific, such as physical evidence of a crime." The gap between 1652 and
>2014 is just too long to assume anything more than an accidental
>resemblance.
>
>JL
>
>
>
>
>On Fri, Apr 18, 2014 at 3:11 PM, Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster: Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
> > Subject: Re: _Canvass_ > "examine, pore over, search"
> >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > I would not describe a search of garages for a specific car or license
> > plate as a search for information or data.
> >
> > DanG
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 18, 2014 at 3:01 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
> >
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > -----------------------
> > > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > > Subject: Re: _Canvass_ > "examine, pore over, search"
> > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Dan's is an example of what I would admit (that is, possibly say and
> > > not proscribe) under "canvass". It is searching for information,
> > > data, similarly to interviewing.
> > >
> > > Regarding something Jon wrote earlier, like him I would not say
> > > "Francisco de Ulloa canvassed the Sea of Cortes", but rather
> > > "explored". Unless perhaps the context was that he was looking for
> > > information about, evidence of something, like El Dorado or
> > > Atlantis. "Canvassed" to me has a connotation of "asking" more than
> > > "doing", so I extend "canvass" only when the "doing" is looking for
> > > information. But even there, I would probably prefer "searched".
> > >
> > > Similarly, for MH370 I would prefer "searching" the South Indian
> > > Ocean to "canvassing", and definitely rule out "exploring".
> > >
> > > Joel
> > >
> > > At 4/18/2014 02:14 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
> > >
> > > >I am still convinced that there has been more recent use of the word
> > > >'canvass' (or 'canvas') to mean a search, not just interviews.
> > > >
> > > >Here is an example from 1941:
> > > >
> > > >Military Police
> > > >United States. War Dept
> > > >War Department, 1941 - Military police - 160 pages
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://books.google.com/books?id=Ms8sAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA116&dq=canvass+police&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oWlRU8nqGfPjsASNsYK4BA&ved=0CF0Q6AEwBA
> > > >
> > > >"If the make of the vehicle is known, a check on all such vehicles in
> > the
> > > >area may lead to locating the one wanted. An immediate canvas of garages
> > > in
> > > >the area is another worth-while follow-up check."
> > > >
> > > >DanG
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >On Fri, Apr 18, 2014 at 8:15 AM, Jonathan Lighter
> > > ><wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > -----------------------
> > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > > > > Subject: Re: _Canvass_ > "examine, pore over, search"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > It hasn't been hurt by the fact that for at least several centuries,
> > no
> > > > > connection between the noun "canvass" and *any* of the meanings in
> > > question
> > > > > has been obvious.
> > > > >
> > > > > So the Rohrschach principle of semantic change kicks in: "I don't
> > know
> > > what
> > > > > the hell it means exactly, so why not this?!"
> > > > >
> > > > > JL
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 8:15 PM, Laurence Horn <
> > laurence.horn at yale.edu
> > > > > >wrot=
> > > > > e:
> > > > >
> > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > > -----------------------
> > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > > > Poster: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: _Canvass_ > "examine, pore over, search"
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> > > > > ------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The really fun part of the OED entry for _canvass_ (which inspired
> > > me to
> > > > > > use it in a class exercise to demonstrate semantic change) is the
> > > > > history=
> > > > > ,
> > > > > > from canvas (the cloth) to the use of canvas sheets for fun and
> > > torture
> > > > > > back in the early 16th c.:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1. To toss in a canvas sheet, etc., as a sport or punishment; to
> > > blanket.
> > > > > > Obs.
> > > > > > =EF=BF=BDTo knock about, shake and shatter thoroughly; to buffet;
> > to
> > > > > beat=
> > > > > , batter,
> > > > > > drub.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > By the late 16th c. this began to allow for metaphorical readings,
> > > but
> > > > > th=
> > > > > e
> > > > > > route from tossing someone in a canvas sheet or thrashing them to
> > > > > surveyi=
> > > > > ng
> > > > > > a region to soliciting votes is pretty interesting. Warning:
> > > tracking
> > > > > th=
> > > > > e
> > > > > > history may provide an unfortunate reminder of the 2000
> > presidential
> > > > > > election.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > LH
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Apr 17, 2014, at 7:41 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > At 4/17/2014 03:37 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> OED does a very poor job on police "canvassing the
> > neighborhood."
> > > In
> > > > > > fact,
> > > > > > >> it's not there at all, unless you're happy with 7b, "To sue or
> > > solicit
> > > > > > >> (persons, a district) for votes, subscriptions, custom, orders,
> > > etc."
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> See, "etc." could include "information." Works for me. Not.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It works for me with "information", but not with the OEDs verbs
> > > (sue,
> > > > > > > solicit). My notion of (the sense in question here of) "canvass"
> > > is
> > > > > > > "to search, inquire, for information". Similar to Jon's Subject
> > > line
> > > > > > > (but more with the sense of "seeking" than "examining"), and to
> > > Dan's
> > > > > > > comment further below. And different from the 4.b Jon cites
> > next;
> > > > > > > "investigate" is OK; "physically" to restrictive: canvassed
> > > > > > > information can come from speech also.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> As for the defined sense, "To investigate or examine physically"
> > > (4b),
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > >> is clearly marked "Obs.," with a single citation from 1652. Nada
> > > > > since=
> > > > > .
> > > > > > >> Odds that Wilson's cited journalist learned this usage in an
> > > unbroken
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > >> unrecorded line from the mid-17th century: zero.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Moreover, the new example is closer in meaning to "search (an
> > > area)
> > > > > > >> carefully and methodically" than it is to "investigate or
> > examine
> > > > > > >> physically," which is what the Spanish explorer Francisco de
> > > Ulloa was
> > > > > > >> doing, no more and no less, in Peter Heylen's 1652
> > > _Cosmographie_ as
> > > > > =
> > > > > he
> > > > > > >> *explored* what is now called the Sea of Cortez:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Search for information" again.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Joel
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> "The business having slept a while, was in the year 1539
> > awakened
> > > by
> > > > > > >> *Francisco
> > > > > > >> de Vlloa,* one that had accompanied *Cortez* the time before:
> > who
> > > did
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > >> only search to the bottom of the *Gulf,* but having thorowly
> > > canvassed
> > > > > > all
> > > > > > >> the Eastern shores, he turned his course, and made as fortunate
> > a
> > > > > > Discovery
> > > > > > >> also of the VVestern coasts."
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Heylen used "canvass" rather often, usually in the sense of "to
> > > > > > discuss."
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> To "investigate or explore (physically)" is a plausible early
> > > meaning
> > > > > =
> > > > > of
> > > > > > >> "to discuss," though the OED (which see) does not say so.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> JL
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 5:52 PM, Dan Goncharoff <
> > > thegonch at gmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > > >> > -----------------------
> > > > > > >> > Sender: American Dialect Society <
> > ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > > > >> > Poster: Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
> > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: _Canvass_ > "examine, pore over, search"
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> > > > > ------
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > There is an older meaning of canvass that means to search or
> > > > > > scrutinize.
> > > > > > >> > Back in the 19th century, it was the first meaning. Check the
> > > 1828
> > > > > > >> > Webster's.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > DanG
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 8:57 PM, Wilson Gray <
> > hwgray at gmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > > >> > > -----------------------
> > > > > > >> > > Sender: American Dialect Society <
> > > ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > > > >> > > Poster: Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
> > > > > > >> > > Subject: Re: _Canvass_ > "examine, pore over, search"
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> > > > > ------
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 8:12 PM, Jonathan Lighter <
> > > > > > >> > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com
> > > > > > >> > > >wrote:
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > > "canvass the area"
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > That's a clip of "canvass, i.e. "interview," the [residents
> > > of]
> > > > > th=
> > > > > e
> > > > > > area
> > > > > > >> > > [to see what, if anything, they know about the crime]."
> > Since
> > > > > > deserts are
> > > > > > >> > > called "deserts" because they're deserted, I can't wrap my
> > > mind
> > > > > > around
> > > > > > >> > the
> > > > > > >> > > concept of "canvassing" a desert to see what, if anything,
> > it
> > > > > know=
> > > > > s
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > >> > > the location of the body of a murder victim or for anything
> > > else
> > > > > > that it
> > > > > > >> > > may know. Others may not have this problem.
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > Youneverknow.
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > --
> > > > > > >> > > -Wilson
> > > > > > >> > > -----
> > > > > > >> > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange
> > > > > > complaint to
> > > > > > >> > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> > > > > > >> > > -Mark Twain
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > >> > > The American Dialect Society -
> > http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle
> > > the
> > > > > > truth."
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --=20
> > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> > > truth."
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
>
>
>
>--
>"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
More information about the Ads-l
mailing list