Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name

Mon Aug 18 01:49:40 UTC 2014

Richard P. Martin writes a bit about the transition from oral to 
written of "Homer"s works. "Introduction," in Homer, The Odyssey 
(Baltimore: The Johns Hopkins University Press, 2004), xxviii, xxix, 
xxx.   I don't remember what his sources are.

Joel

At 8/17/2014 05:04 PM, Baker, John wrote:
>While I don't know how the quotation actually came into being, it 
>makes far more sense for Homer, which essentially just denotes the 
>person who composed the Iliad and the Odyssey (if, indeed, one 
>person composed both).  (Of course, both epics arose out of an oral 
>tradition, but it seems a fair assumption, if no more than that, 
>that in each case a single person played a key role in assembling 
>the text into something resembling what we know today.)  We know a 
>relatively large amount about every other named famous poet, 
>including Shakespeare.
>
>
>John Baker
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On 
>Behalf Of Benjamin Barrett
>Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2014 4:21 PM
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Re: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by 
>Shakspeare but by another man of the same name
>
>Right, but in case I wasn't clear, my question is who the entitled 
>quotation was first used for. BB
>
>On Aug 17, 2014, at 1:12 PM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>
> >
> > Opinion is still contentiously divided as to whether the same poet composed
> > both, and why his name means "The [officially exchanged] Hostage."
> > Actually, nobody knows the reason for that.
> >
> > The weight of the extensive linguistic evidence is that the texts we have
> > were almost certainly written down, and revised in the writing, by
> > different people.
> >
> > Who presumably bore different names. Most of the time.
> >
> > JL
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett <gogaku at ix.netcom.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> -----------------------
> >> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> Poster:       Benjamin Barrett <gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM>
> >> Subject:      Re: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by
> >>              Shakspeare but by another man of the same name
> >>
> >> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> I recall reading that the Odyssey and the Iliad weren't written by =
> >> Homer, but some other blind poet whose name is unknown. Although that =
> >> line was tongue-in-cheek, it appears that modern speculation on his =
> >> identity goes back to 1795 =
> >> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_Question). Which bard was this =
> >> meme used for first?=20
> >>
> >> Benjamin Barrett
> >> Formerly of Seattle, WA
> >>
> >> Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home
> >>
> >> On Aug 17, 2014, at 8:26 AM, Stephen Goranson <goranson at DUKE.EDU> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Interesting! Here's an apparent use in 1860:=3D0A=3D
> >>> "This [argument about a planet discovery] rivals the new discovery =
> >> about Sh=3D
> >>> akespeare--that the well know plays and poems were not by William =
> >> Shakespea=3D
> >>> re, but by another person of the same name!"=3D0A=3D
> >>> The Spectator, January 14, 1860 p. 38 col. 1 GoogleB=3D0A=3D
> >>> =
> >> 
> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DQi8_AQAAIAAJ&pg=3D3DPA38&dq=3D3D%22bu=
> >> t+by+an=3D
> >>> =
> >> 
> other+*+of+the+same+name%22&hl=3D3Den&sa=3D3DX&ei=3D3DscfwU-CGLciI8gH3xoGY=
> >> DA&ved=3D
> >>> =
> >> 
> =3D3D0CCIQuwUwATgK#v=3D3Donepage&q=3D3D%22but%20by%20another%20*%20of%20th=
> >> e%20sam=3D
> >>> e%20name%22&f=3D3Dfalse=3D0A=3D
> >>> =3D0A=3D
> >>> Stephen Goranson=3D0A=3D
> >>> http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/=3D0A=3D
> >>> =3D0A=3D
> >>> ________________=3D0A=3D
> >>> =3D0A=3D
> >>> =3D0A=3D
> >>> Garson:=3D0A=3D
> >>> =3D0A=3D
> >>> Jonathan Lighter wrote:=3D0A=3D
> >>>> "Shakespeare" means many things besides "wanker." That's why=3D0A=3D
> >>>> his works are acclaimed. (Or, as seems likely, works written by=3D0A=3D=
> >>
> >>>> someone else of the same name.)=3D0A=3D
> >>> =3D0A=3D
> >>> JL alludes to an old joke that has been applied to Homer and=3D0A=3D
> >>> Shakespeare. Here are two exemplars:=3D0A=3D
> >>> =3D0A=3D
> >>> 1) The Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another =
> >> person=3D0A=3D
> >>> of the same name.=3D0A=3D
> >>> =3D0A=3D
> >>> 2) The plays of Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but
> >> by=3D0A=3D=
> >>
> >>> another man of the same name.=3D0A=3D
> >>> =3D0A=3D
> >>> I was asked to explore the history of this family of quips which =
> >> has=3D0A=3D
> >>> been connected to Mark Twain, G. K. Chesterton, Lewis Carroll, =
> >> Israel=3D0A=3D
> >>> Zangwill, Jerome K. Jerome, Aldous Huxley and others.=3D0A=3D
> >>> =3D0A=3D
> >>> Here are the earliest citations I've found at this point.=3D0A=3D
> >>> =3D0A=3D
> >>> The spelling "Shakspeare" was used for "Shakespeare" in the =
> >> following=3D0A=3D
> >>> two excerpts which made it harder to locate in the GB database.=3D0A=3D
> >>> =3D0A=3D
> >>> [ref] 1868 December, The National Quarterly Review, Volume 19, =
> >> Number=3D0A=3D
> >>> 35, Article 2: Early Christian Literature, Start Page 23, Quote =
> >> Page=3D0A=3D
> >>> 33, Edward I. Sears, Editor and Proprietor, New York. (Google =
> >> Books=3D0A=3D
> >>> Full View) link [/ref]=3D0A=3D
> >>> =3D0A=3D
> >>> =
> >> 
> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DXiUAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D3D%22not+written%22#=
> >> v=3D3Ds=3D
> >>> nippet&=3D0A=3D
> >>> =3D0A=3D
> >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D
> >>> This admission of the learned bishop's, that the Apocrypha was
> >> not=3D0A=3D=
> >>
> >>> written by the apostle John but by an inspired man of that name,=3D0A=3D=
> >>
> >>> reminds us forcibly of the Frenchman's criticism on the authorship =
> >> of=3D0A=3D
> >>> the plays usually attributed to Shakspeare, wherein after a =
> >> careful=3D0A=3D
> >>> review of the evidence pro and con, he comes to the conclusion =
> >> that=3D0A=3D
> >>> they were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the
> >> same=3D0A=3D=
> >>
> >>> name!=3D0A=3D
> >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D
> >>> =3D0A=3D
> >>> =3D0A=3D
> >>> [ref] 1870 May 21, Harper's Bazaar, Volume 3, Meditations Among =
> >> the=3D0A=3D
> >>> Tombs of the Washingtons by Gail Hamilton, Quote Page 322, Column =
> >> 4,=3D0A=3D
> >>> Harper & Brothers, New York. (Google Books Full View) link
> >> [/ref]=3D0A=3D=
> >>
> >>> =3D0A=3D
> >>> =
> >> 
> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DDR6NP-RgCfUC&q=3D3D%22not+written+by%=
> >> 22#v=3D
> >>> =3D3Dsnippet&=3D0A=3D
> >>> =3D0A=3D
> >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D
> >>> What have we gained when we have reached the conclusion that the =
> >> plays=3D0A=3D
> >>> of SHAKSPEARE were not written by SHAKSPEARE, but by another man =
> >> of=3D0A=3D
> >>> the same name?=3D0A=3D
> >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D
> >>> =3D0A=3D
> >>> Below is the earliest instance I've found in this family of =
> >> humorous=3D0A=3D
> >>> remarks based on Homer.=3D0A=3D
> >>> =3D0A=3D
> >>> [ref] 1874, The Shotover Papers, Or, Echoes from Oxford, Volume
> >> 1,=3D0A=3D=
> >>
> >>> (Special Commemoration Number), Arrowlets, Quote Page 112, (No =
> >> date=3D0A=3D
> >>> was specified for this issue; the previous issue 6 was dated May =
> >> 30,=3D0A=3D
> >>> 1874; the next issue 8 was dated October 17 1874) Publisher J.=3D0A=3D
> >>> Vincent, High Street, Oxford, England. (Google Books Full View) =
> >> link=3D0A=3D
> >>> [/ref]=3D0A=3D
> >>> =3D0A=3D
> >>> =
> >> 
> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DVKk-AQAAMAAJ&q=3D3D%22not+written%22#=
> >> v=3D3Ds=3D
> >>> nippet&=3D0A=3D
> >>> =3D0A=3D
> >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D
> >>> The other day the witty D.C.L. listened gravely to a long debate =
> >> among=3D0A=3D
> >>> the dons at the High Table about the authorship of the Homeric =
> >> Poems,=3D0A=3D
> >>> and wound up the discussion thus: "I am much interested in the =
> >> subject=3D0A=3D
> >>> now before us, and I have come to the conclusion on hearing your=3D0A=3D=
> >>
> >>> arguments that the Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but
> >> by=3D0A=3D=
> >>
> >>> another person of the same name."=3D0A=3D
> >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D
> >>> =3D0A=3D
> >>> Here is an example in 1840 of a discussion concerning multiple =
> >> Homers=3D0A=3D
> >>> without humorous overtones. It is this type of theory that =
> >> prompted=3D0A=3D
> >>> the comical remarks.=3D0A=3D
> >>> =3D0A=3D
> >>> [ref] 1840 September, The London Quarterly Review, Volume 66, =
> >> Article=3D0A=3D
> >>> 2, (Book Review of "The Plains of Troy" by Henry W. Acland),
> >> Start=3D0A=3D=
> >>
> >>> Page 189, Quote Page 194, Column 1, American Edition Published
> >> by=3D0A=3D=
> >>
> >>> Jemima M. Mason, New York. (Google Books Full View)=3D0A=3D
> >>> =3D0A=3D
> >>> =
> >> 
> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DalQAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D3D%22same+name%22+#v=
> >> =3D3Dsn=3D
> >>> ippet&=3D0A=3D
> >>> =3D0A=3D
> >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D
> >>> In the next place, according to the opinion of divers great=3D0A=3D
> >>> scholars--not Germans--for example, Mr. Payne Knight, Bishop=3D0A=3D
> >>> Thirlwall, and others--the man who wrote the Odyssey was not the =
> >> same=3D0A=3D
> >>> man who wrote the Iliad, but another of the same name, who lived
> >> a=3D0A=3D=
> >>
> >>> long time after Homer I,. and wrote so exceedingly like him that=3D0A=3D=
> >>
> >>> almost all the world have confounded them together, like two =
> >> single=3D0A=3D
> >>> gentlemen rolled into one; and lastly, the same scholars, and
> >> many=3D0A=3D=
> >>
> >>> others, hold it clear that the man who wrote that book of the =
> >> Odyssey,=3D0A=3D
> >>> in which the above quoted passage occurs, was neither Homer I., =
> >> nor=3D0A=3D
> >>> Homer II., but another man again, whom we may properly call Homer =
> >> III.=3D0A=3D
> >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D
> >>> =3D0A=3D
> >>> Garson=3D0A=3D
> >>> =3D0A=3D
>
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