Raleigh, N.C. -- awesome or aw-dropping?

Thu Feb 13 18:44:09 UTC 2014

Michael,

You're right about high school being like "ice" rather than "high".  I learned all this from Roger l:ass, who was my supervisor at Edinburgh and is from Brooklyn.  He used to double-check his own intuitions with me before he made a statement sometimes, and he taught me a lot of things about NYC area speech that Kaye mentions.  He's the one who alerted me to the PRICE/PRIZE distinction.

Do you know anything about a backing of PALM and START in NYC during the earlier part of the 20c?  If I hear New Yorkers in old movies, I hear a lot frontier values than now, maybe not as front as Boston, but definitely front-to-central values.  My dad had forms like this, though, if I remember correctly, my mom and her female relatives already had back ones.

Paul
On Feb 13, 2014, at 1:03 PM, Michael Newman <Michael.Newman at QC.CUNY.EDU> wrote:

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> Poster:       Michael Newman <Michael.Newman at QC.CUNY.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Raleigh, N.C. -- awesome or aw-dropping?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Paul,
>
> That’s exactly right except that it isn’t so much a split as a shift of part of one class to another. Short A is a split because a new phoneme developed.
>
> PALM is longer than LOT, which propels the whole thing.
>
>
> It is very astute of you to notice the PRICE/PRIZE thing. I didn’t until I read the Kaye article. t didn’t get into the PRICE/PRIZE distinction in the post, although it will appear in the book. Also open syllable are backed with the diphthong, so ‘pry’ patterns with PRIZE class. This position is unavailable in the short-0 words that shifted to PALM, although it exists in some former long A words that gave rise to the class like ‘father' as well as loans like ‘spa' and ‘pajama.'You get an interesting pair with ‘high' being backed, but 'high school' isn’t.
>
>
> This PRICE/PRIZE difference is related to Canadian Raising, but it doesn’t happen with MOUTH, which is fronted invariably.
>
>
>
> Michael Newman
> Professor of Linguistics
> Department of Linguistics and Communication Disorders
> Queens College/CUNY
>
> mnewman at qc.cuny.edu
>
> On Feb 13, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Paul Johnston <paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU> wrote:
>
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>> Poster:       Paul Johnston <paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU>
>> Subject:      Re: Raleigh, N.C. -- awesome or aw-dropping?
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Michael,
>> I have the same pattern you do, and know about PALM and LOT being separate.  There is a short-O split as well as a short-A split going on.  It also affects (allophonically), the PRICE vowel depending on the voiceless/voiced status of the following consonant: I'd have [praIs] but [prAIz].
>>
>> What complicates matters is that the PALM vowel (and the V1 of PRICE before voiced consonants and finally) can not only be back, but rounded for some speakers.  But it is still a lot lower than the vowel in THOUGHT (even if monophthongal) or the V1 of CHOICE.  Those New Yorkers who've gone all upstate on us and have the low rounded back vowel in THOUGHT wouldn't have back variants in PALM, I would think, though the PALM vowel might be a little longer than their LOT vowel (perhaps?)
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> On Feb 13, 2014, at 10:42 AM, Michael Newman <Michael.Newman at QC.CUNY.EDU> wrote:
>>
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>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       Michael Newman <Michael.Newman at QC.CUNY.EDU>
>>> Subject:      Re: Raleigh, N.C. -- awesome or aw-dropping?
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> I’m with Larry.
>>>
>>> Remember that all good NYers have three vowels in the back there not two. In Wells lexical sets which is much clearer than this “awe” business it’s
>>>
>>> LOT= My Raleigh, NY
>>> PALM= My Sir Walter Raleigh (also the vowel in Walter due I suspect the w as much as the l)
>>> THOUGHT= coffee etc.
>>>
>>> I’ve lost a lot of the PALM set which in old timers appears in descendants of  Middle English short-O words before voiced stops and many voiceless fricatives (god, Bob and gosh) in a way reminiscent of the short-A split. This is mentioned in various of Labov’s early work and again in ANAE. There’s also an article by Jonathan Kaye and as soon as DeGruyter publishes New York City English, there will be an explanation there. I’ve got a couple of very talented undergrads lined up to study its evolution in old NYC families. Let’s hope they get it right, and I can present the results at NWAV.
>>>
>>> The funny thing is that people often don’t seem aware of the existence of NYCE PALM.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael Newman
>>> Professor of Linguistics
>>> Department of Linguistics and Communication Disorders
>>> Queens College/CUNY
>>>
>>> mnewman at qc.cuny.edu
>>>
>>> On Feb 13, 2014, at 10:21 AM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
>>>
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>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>>>> Subject:      Re: Raleigh, N.C. -- awesome or aw-dropping?
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 13, 2014, at 8:30 AM, Paul Johnston wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> No.  I am a [po at li], so there's no low-vowel merger there.  Rawley is [ro at li].  I have the usual NYC area pattern.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul(ie)
>>>>
>>>> Hunh.  I think of my NYC pattern as having an open o for that vowel rather than a [o@], although I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there is an off-glide.  We probably have the same vowel there and just different religious beliefs about what it really is.  And yours is probably correct.
>>>>
>>>> LH
>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 13, 2014, at 8:14 AM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
>>>>>
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>>>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>>> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>>>>>> Subject:      Re: Raleigh, N.C. -- awesome or aw-dropping?
>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 13, 2014, at 1:11 AM, Paul Johnston wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Script a for me, even with Sir Walter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But I assume these wouldn't be homophonous with "Rawley" or rhyme with Jane Pauley (or a putative self-diminutive Paulie) for you, right?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LH
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Feb 12, 2014, at 10:46 PM, "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET> wrote:
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>>>>> Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
>>>>>>>> Subject:      Re: Raleigh, N.C. -- awesome or aw-dropping?
>>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At 2/12/2014 08:47 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I suspect I've gone back and forth on Raleigh (North Carolina, Sir
>>>>>>>>> Walter, cigarettes, whatever), between Rollie (which I pronounce
>>>>>>>>> with an [a], or really script a, vowel as in the first name of the
>>>>>>>>> ex-A's/Brewers' relief pitcher Fingers) and Rawley.  I think I might
>>>>>>>>> be more likely to use the open-o for Sir Walter Raleigh because of
>>>>>>>>> the rounding in his first name, more so than in the snow- and
>>>>>>>>> ice-bound N.C. city.   It's hard for me to be sure exactly how I
>>>>>>>>> tend to pronounce these unselfconsciously, though. (
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I find that I react (recoil?) when I *hear* a pronunciation that's
>>>>>>>> not mine, but like LH am unsure about my own pronunciation when I
>>>>>>>> deliberately think about it or speak it out.  I've begun to trust my
>>>>>>>> first reaction and discount my experiments.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Joel
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (No danger of "awe"-extinction for me, though--I would never merge
>>>>>>>>> the pronunciation of "Cawley" (as in the late Jim McCawley) and
>>>>>>>>> "collie", for example.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> LH
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Feb 12, 2014, at 7:10 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Raleigh, North Carolina, is much in the news this moment for its
>>>>>>>>>> proximity to North Carolinians of stupidity (to paraphrase its
>>>>>>>>>> governor).  I hear announcers saying "Rollie" (almost "Rah-lee", but
>>>>>>>>>> not quite?).  I learned "Raw-lee".  Is that because I'm an effete
>>>>>>>>>> (North-)* Easterner?  Or did I learn it from hearing pre-modern announcers?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> * South-Easterners' methods may differ.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Joel
>>>>>>>>>>
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