Dive (was Re: Sad hour)

[Jonathan Lighter]

To me a "dive" is necessarily unsavory. However, the phrase "local dive"
has long been a casual dysphemism for a small but unglamorous local bar -
like "new heap" for that '38 Heinz-Bohman Phantom Corsair I didn't get for
Christmas.

Cf. ancient movie lines like, "Jeez! Dis is one high-class dump!"

JL


On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 3:22 PM, Benjamin Barrett <gogaku at ix.netcom.com>wrote:

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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Benjamin Barrett <gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM>
> Subject:      Dive (was Re: Sad hour)
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Of "dive," Wiktionary (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dive) says:
> "(slang) A seedy bar, nightclub, etc."
>
> Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dive_bar), however, says:
>
> -----
> A dive bar is an informal bar or pub. Such bars are sometimes referred to
> as neighborhood bars, where local residents gather to drink and socialize.
>
> Individual bars may be considered to be disreputable, sinister, or even a
> detriment to the community. This was especially true in earlier times:
> -----
>
> I think the second sentence also means "neighborhood bars are generally
> referred to as dives." That is how I understand the word "dive,"
> essentially the equivalent of a "tavern," a word I don't hear people using
> much anymore. (In Washington State, a "tavern" is defined as a drinking
> establishment that sells only beer and wine (
> http://dor.wa.gov/Content/DoingBusiness/BusinessTypes/Industry/Tavern/default.aspx),
> but I am referring to the atmosphere regardless of whether spirits are
> sold.)
>
> I would not generally consider a brew pub to be a dive, though there
> probably are places that could convince me of their diviness.
>
> I'm not sure what VS is talking about exactly, but I suspect this is along
> the lines of a divy brew pub that is, exuding an atmosphere below the
> casual level.
>
> Nobody else has commented on John Doe's (WG's) interesting observation of
> dive vs. dive bar; this divy development along with dive restaurants may be
> an indication that the word has shifted permanently.
>
> This leaves the problem of what to call a disreputable bar. Even "a
> shit/shitty hole in the wall" is likely a dysphemism for a divy
> neighborhood tavern/restaurant.
>
> Benjamin Barrett
>
> On Jan 7, 2014, at 6:27 PM, Victor Steinbok <aardvark66 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I've noticed conflicting usage in the last decade or so. One is indeed
> > along GT's outline. But there's a particular "underground" sense where a
> > dive bar would be fashionable among a particular kind of clientele. It's
> > hard to describe, but it cannot be truly upscale, must be fairly well
> > priced, serve particular kinds of drinks, including retro cocktails and
> > exude a certain kind of "dive" atmosphere. Merely calling it
> > "fashionable" is not enough. But it does appear to reflect a common GenY
> > reversal.
> >
> >     VS-)
> >
> >
> > On 1/7/2014 4:07 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote:
> >> Good question. It might be a retronym to distinguish it from dive
> restaurants. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dive says "A seedy bar,
> nightclub, etc."
> >>
> >> On Jan 7, 2014, at 12:49 AM, John Doe <hwgray at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 1:54 AM, Benjamin Barrett <gogaku at ix.netcom.com
> >wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> dive bar
> >>>
> >>> In what way does a "dive *bar*" distinguish itself from an ordinary
> "dive"?
>
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