Dive (was Re: Sad hour)

[John Doe]

My problem isn't with *what* it is, but *why* it is. I can't get a handle
on calling a bar A "dove" bar. For me, a dive is necessarily a bar. It's
possible for a bar not to be a dive, but it's impossible for a dive not to
be a bar.

"Tonight, we're not going to a mere bar. Rather, we're going to a *dive*
bar!"

My semantic component is left twisting in the wind. I just don't get it.
Why would anyone feel the need to say anything like that?

One benefit of dying young is that you don't live long enough to have to
deal with seeing language-change in progress.

OTOH, I heard a phrase used just today that I thought had become extinct in
the '60's. On Springer, a young white woman says of the similar woman upon
whom she is crushing,

"She has ass _for days_!"

"For days" was a phrase that could be used to emphasize the essence of
anything at all.

A. "That 'dive(-)bar' thing must be done bugged Wilson's head."

B. "You ain't said shit, man. For *days*!"


On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 8:44 PM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>wrote:

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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Dive (was Re: Sad hour)
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Jan 8, 2014, at 6:28 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote:
>
> > At 1/8/2014 03:22 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote:
> >> Of "dive," Wiktionary (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dive) says:
> >> "(slang) A seedy bar, nightclub, etc."
> >>
> >> Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dive_bar), however, says:
> >>
> >> -----
> >> A dive bar is an informal bar or pub. Such bars are sometimes
> >> referred to as neighborhood bars, where local residents gather to
> >> drink and socialize.
> >>
> >> Individual bars may be considered to be disreputable, sinister, or
> >> even a detriment to the community. This was especially true in earlier
> times:
> >> -----
> >
> > Having grown up in earlier times (but later than Prohibition!!), I
> > associate "dive" with something disreputable or potentially
> > dangerous.  (And not with "informal" or "neighborhood", as Wikipedia
> > asserts.)  But it may have acquired an upper-crust or posh sense,
> > perhaps of "unusual" or "interesting because off-beat", more recently.
> >
> > Joel
>
> Is there a term (other than more general terms like "rehabilitation",
> "reclamation", or "amelioration") for the process in which a pejorative
> term associated with the lower classes (in both economic and moral senses)
> is upgraded in this way? (Joel's "interesting because off-beat" gloss often
> comes close to describing the end-result.)  I'm thinking not only of "dive"
> for places but "rascal", "scamp", or "rogue" for people, and "raffish" or
> "louche" for the associated properties.  In each case, the earliest OED
> cites/glosses are all quite negative, and some of the synonyms of such
> words (e.g. those descriptors listed in the OED under these headings)
> haven't been as fortunate:  "sleazy", "creep", "villain",...  "Going rogue"
> is one thing (and has been since at least 1932), "going
> villain/unprincipled", if it exists at all, would be something else.  The
> fact that "dive" and "dive bar" seem to have parted evaluative company is a
> nice illustration of this randomness in which items!
>   get pardoned.
>
> LH
> >
> >
> >> I think the second sentence also means "neighborhood bars are
> >> generally referred to as dives." That is how I understand the word
> >> "dive," essentially the equivalent of a "tavern," a word I don't
> >> hear people using much anymore. (In Washington State, a "tavern" is
> >> defined as a drinking establishment that sells only beer and wine
> >> (
> http://dor.wa.gov/Content/DoingBusiness/BusinessTypes/Industry/Tavern/default.aspx
> ),
> >> but I am referring to the atmosphere regardless of whether spirits are
> sold.)
> >>
> >> I would not generally consider a brew pub to be a dive, though there
> >> probably are places that could convince me of their diviness.
> >>
> >> I'm not sure what VS is talking about exactly, but I suspect this is
> >> along the lines of a divy brew pub that is, exuding an atmosphere
> >> below the casual level.
> >>
> >> Nobody else has commented on John Doe's (WG's) interesting
> >> observation of dive vs. dive bar; this divy development along with
> >> dive restaurants may be an indication that the word has shifted
> permanently.
> >>
> >> This leaves the problem of what to call a disreputable bar. Even "a
> >> shit/shitty hole in the wall" is likely a dysphemism for a divy
> >> neighborhood tavern/restaurant.
> >>
> >> Benjamin Barrett
> >>
> >> On Jan 7, 2014, at 6:27 PM, Victor Steinbok <aardvark66 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> > I've noticed conflicting usage in the last decade or so. One is indeed
> >> > along GT's outline. But there's a particular "underground" sense
> where a
> >> > dive bar would be fashionable among a particular kind of clientele.
> It's
> >> > hard to describe, but it cannot be truly upscale, must be fairly well
> >> > priced, serve particular kinds of drinks, including retro cocktails
> and
> >> > exude a certain kind of "dive" atmosphere. Merely calling it
> >> > "fashionable" is not enough. But it does appear to reflect a common
> GenY
> >> > reversal.
> >> >
> >> >     VS-)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 1/7/2014 4:07 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote:
> >> >> Good question. It might be a retronym to distinguish it from
> >> dive restaurants. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dive says "A seedy
> >> bar, nightclub, etc."
> >> >>
> >> >> On Jan 7, 2014, at 12:49 AM, John Doe <hwgray at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 1:54 AM, Benjamin Barrett
> >> <gogaku at ix.netcom.com>wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> dive bar
> >> >>>
> >> >>> In what way does a "dive *bar*" distinguish itself from an
> >> ordinary "dive"?
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>



--
-Wilson
-----
All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to
come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
-Mark Twain

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