which its = "whose"

[Jonathan Lighter]

Yes, "that its."  Heard frequently, rarely seen in a student theme.

But I'm mostly talking about twenty-five years ago and more.

That other thing too - though not in writing that I can specifically recall.

Does it have a name?

Or is it the Grammatically Nameless?

JL

JL


On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 9:38 AM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: which its = "whose"
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I believe we've discussed "thats" here (I prefer the spelling without
> apostrophe; always hard to decide when the alternatives are all officially
> ruled out) in the past, and there may have also been blog posts on Language
> Log, Arnold's blog, or elsewhere.  It's a lot more common than you might
> think.  There is also, of course, the resumptive pronoun version, also
> officially ungrammatical but not unheard of:  "an idea that its time has
> come" or, more likely, "the guy that you were dancing with her girlfriend
> last night".
>
> LH
>
> On Jun 16, 2014, at 8:58 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
> > I clearly recall a "that's" or two in a student theme, but only from one
> > student. It was almost precisely thirty years ago.
> >
> > However, when pressed to fill in the blank in "This is an idea _______
> time
> > has come," a number of students used "that's".  (ISTR that "whose"
> > responses were only a notable minority.)
> >
> > Ordinarily, I think they'd avoid the construction entirely.
> >
> > JL
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 8:45 AM, Amy West <medievalist at w-sts.com> wrote:
> >
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> >> -----------------------
> >> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> Poster:       Amy West <medievalist at W-STS.COM>
> >> Subject:      Re: which its = "whose"
> >>
> >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Because I'm Commander Obvious, is there thinking that this construction
> >> is influenced by the dictum to use "who" only for referents that are
> >> persons? Are you seeing any "that's"?
> >>
> >> ---Amy West
> >>
> >> (I will confess to preferring "who" over "that" for the relative pron.
> >> for persons just as a point of style, AND further confess to making that
> >> comment on students' papers, but I do note that it's a point of style,
> >> not "grammar.")
> >>
> >> On 6/14/14, 12:03 AM, Automatic digest processor wrote:
> >>> Date:    Fri, 13 Jun 2014 13:36:15 -0400
> >>> From:    Jonathan Lighter<wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> >>> Subject: which its = "whose"
> >>>
> >>> Long ago I mentioned the difficulty even  grad students in English had
> 30
> >>> years ago with "whose" as a subordinating conjunction after something
> not
> >>> human, as in "an idea whose time has come." (Some online grammarians
> now
> >>> prefer the counter-rational "subordinate conjunction." Right.)
> >>>
> >>> One of the grotesque conjunctions the studes used was "which's."
>  Another
> >>> was the perhaps genetically identical "which its."
> >>>
> >>> Now grownups use it:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> http://cnn.org/2014/06/11/opinion/ben-ghiat-world-war-one/index.html?iid=article_sidebar
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> "the Submarine was introduced in the 19th Century by the French called
> >> the
> >>> Plongeur, Which its designs were used by the Confederates to build the
> >> H.L.
> >>> Hunley"
> >>>
> >>> JL
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth."
> >
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