Ukraine vs The Ukraine

[Laurence Horn]

On Mar 5, 2014, at 5:24 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:

> I thought it was plural names that got the 'The', which excludes Ukraine.
>
> DanG

Unless I missed it, nobody (in the current thread) has mentioned "The Argentine", which serves as an object lesson for the colonialist implications of former British-inspired naming practices (not that Argentina was a colony of Britain, but still).  That one is a singular, which does seem to exacerbate the pejorative feel, even if it can be claimed to literally translate "La Argentina".

LH
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 5:13 PM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
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>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>> Subject:      Re: Ukraine vs The Ukraine
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Maybe names that incorporate adjectives are exempt (The United
>> States/United Kingdom/Soviet Union/Former Yugoslavia :).  That still leaves
>> "The Netherlands" (unless you parse it as "The Nether Lands"), and of
>> course "The Philippines" and "The Ukraine" as the real test cases of
>> practice vs. prescription, a bit like "Sixth Avenue" vs. "The Avenue of the
>> Americas".  And then there's the real victim of colonial hegemonist
>> subjugation, THE Bronx.
>>
>> LH
>>
>> On Mar 5, 2014, at 5:02 PM, Geoffrey Steven Nathan wrote:
>>
>>> Not to mention THE United Kingdom and THE Soviet Union. Clearly all
>> aching to escape from the chains of colonialism. Oh ,wait....
>>>
>>> Geoff
>>>
>>> Geoffrey S. Nathan
>>> Faculty Liaison, C&IT
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>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>>> From: "W Brewer" <brewerwa at GMAIL.COM>
>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 4:49:33 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: Ukraine vs The Ukraine
>>>
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>> -----------------------
>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> Poster: W Brewer <brewerwa at GMAIL.COM>
>>>> Subject: Re: Ukraine vs The Ukraine
>>>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>> This morning, CNN interview with a Ukrainian official (foreign
>>>> minister?):
>>>> Interviewing reporter says <Crimea>. The Ukrainian official says <the
>>>> Crimea>.
>>>> WB learned a set of place names in elementary school geography class
>>>> in the '50s; this set of place names included a prefixed <the>. WB
>>>> recalls
>>>> reporting Angst to Linguist List upon hearing a BBC news reader
>>>> dropping
>>>> <the> from <the Ukraine>, maybe twenty years ago. WB was instructed
>>>> that
>>>> <the> was a relic of colonialism, and had to be eliminated, end of
>>>> discussion. WB is still loath to give up the <the>, because that is
>>>> what he
>>>> grew up with, and you'll have to pry it from my cold, dead mouth.
>>>
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