[Ads-l] /d/ for flapped /t/

[Paul A Johnston, Jr.]

You're right, Laurence.  My bad.  It's very very Praguian, not Bloomfieldian.  The memory plays tricks on you, particularly when you're digging back to undergrad days.

Paul

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Laurence Horn" <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2014 11:45:02 AM
> Subject: Re: /d/ for flapped /t/
> 
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: /d/ for flapped /t/
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> On Nov 15, 2014, at 3:12 AM, Paul A Johnston, Jr. wrote:
> 
> > What I see here is this, the old Bloomfieldian argument for =
> archiphonemes:
> 
> Hmm.  I associate archiphonemes with Prague School phonology, back
> when =
> "phonology" itself was were a dirty word for (post-)Bloomfieldian =
> "phonemics", and that the archiphoneme in particular was anathema.
>  The =
> slogan of the day was "once a phoneme, always a phoneme", whence no =
> archiphonemes.  I heard about this back when I was a wee lad, so I
> may =
> be misremembering, or rendering unto Bloomfield the things that are
> the =
> post-Bloomfieldians'.  I have my Bloomfield _Language_ and my Joos =
> reader around somewhere so I could look it up, but I probably won't.
> 
> LH=20
> 
> 
> 
> > the distinction between /d/ and /t/ is neutralized under the flap =
> intervocalically, so people can perceive it as a /d/ just as easily
> as =
> they can as a /t/.  To my ear, the flap is too fast to be a true
> voiced =
> stop.  I can produce a true /d/ intervocalically, but it does not
> sound =
> like anything I (or other Americans)would use in everyday connected =
> discourse.  Maybe if one had to ("I said LADDER, not LATTER.")  =
> Otherwise, there's no difference in the consonant; any difference has
> to =
> do with the allophony of the vowels before it.  I have [aI] in
> writer, =
> but [AI] in rider, for instance.
> >=20
> > And yet...I lived in Scotland, where, even among speakers who have
> > =
> approximants for /r/ in other positions, intervocalic /r/ is nearly =
> always a flap, and yet. it sounded slightly different from my flapped
> =
> /t/.  It sounded more "/r/-like", though I can't pin down what
> exactly =
> that means.  It was probably my American English brain imposing a =
> perception of difference.  I'd have to get the instruments out on
> that =
> one.=20
> >=20
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> 
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