[Ads-l] /d/ for flapped /t/

[Paul A Johnston, Jr.]

That could be. In many dialects, you'll have vowel allophony--frequently length, but often quality as well, distinguishing pre-/t/ from pre-/d/ environments.  Many of my students (from various parts of MI) have front-side Canadian Raising, and so, they distinguish writer/rider as [@I] vs. [aI] before the flap (others have length distinctions alone, like Chicago or Cleveland).  I don't know about latter/ladder and the like, since Great Lakes dialects can turn the /ae/ into [eae] before voiced and voiceless consonants alike.  On the other hand, I have the usual Metro NY distinction in latter/ladder; most frequently, the first one has a centralized [ae], the second, a fronter, longer and slightly raised [ae] in my case (occasionally an ingliding diphthong).

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2014 3:48:59 PM
> Subject: Re: /d/ for flapped /t/
> 
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> Subject:      Re: /d/ for flapped /t/
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Answering Wilson also.
> 
> I can hear a difference when I speak knowing that there might be a
> difference.  And it sounds (I think!) somewhat like what Jon is
> describing.  I think I even lower the tone of the "a" when I say
> "ladder" as compared to "latter".  But am I biasing myself to prove a
> preconceived hypothesis?
> 
> Probably my test would only tell me what I can *hear* if I listened
> to someone else speak a (potential minimal) pair -- such as
> latter/ladder, butter/budder, better/bedder.  But then I would have
> to listen to someone who makes the distinction in speaking, wouldn't
> I?
> 
> Joel
> 
> At 11/15/2014 08:09 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> >I believe I can hear the difference although it is subtle.
> >
> >/d/ sounds (and feels) to me minutely longer and more emphatic. (A
> >phonologist could say that better.)
> >
> >Many of us will remember entire classrooms of students of whom only
> >two or
> >three could hear the difference between /a/ and /C/ (e.g., "pa" and
> >"paw,"
> >"hottie" and "haughty").  Practice helped, but it didn't help
> >everybody.
> 
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