[Ads-l] /d/ for flapped /t/

[Michael Newman]

Well, I’m not very eloquent, but I was trying to say this.


I think that a better analysis is that NYCE preserves more vocalic distinctions that used to be more widespread. Why? I have no idea.

However, the betting/bedding difference is only length, whereas writing/riding (and of course) mat/mad-lat/lad involve vowel quality as well. They are indeed separate vowel phonemes. Jonathan Kaye has a convincing analysis: “Canadian Raising, eh,” In Sound Structure and Sense: Studies in Memory of Edmund Gussman, which for some reason was published in Poland.

Michael Newman
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Communication Disorders
Queens College/CUNY

mnewman at qc.cuny.edu<mailto:mnewman at qc.cuny.edu>

On Nov 16, 2014, at 8:49 PM, Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM<mailto:hwgray at GMAIL.COM>> wrote:

---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU<mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>>
Poster:       Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM<mailto:hwgray at GMAIL.COM>>
Subject:      Re: /d/ for flapped /t/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 1:57 PM, Michael Newman <Michael.Newman at qc.cuny.edu<mailto:Michael.Newman at qc.cuny.edu>>
wrote:


SSB0aGluayB0aGF0IGEgYmV0dGVyIGFuYWx5c2lzIGlzIHRoYXQgTllDRSBwcmVzZXJ2ZXMgbW9y

ZSB2b2NhbGljIGRpc3RpbmN0aW9ucyB0aGF0IHVzZWQgdG8gYmUgbW9yZSB3aWRlc3ByZWFkLiBX

aHk/IEkgaGF2ZSBubyBpZGVhLg0KDQpIb3dldmVyLCB0aGUgYmV0dGluZy9iZWRkaW5nIGRpZmZl

cmVuY2UgaXMgb25seSBsZW5ndGgsIHdoZXJlYXMgd3JpdGluZy9yaWRpbmcgKGFuZCBvZiBjb3Vy

c2UpIG1hdC9tYWQtbGF0L2xhZCBpbnZvbHZlIHZvd2VsIHF1YWxpdHkgYXMgd2VsbC4gVGhleSBh

cmUgaW5kZWVkIHNlcGFyYXRlIHZvd2VsIHBob25lbWVzLiBKb25hdGhhbiBLYXllIGhhcyBhIGNv

bnZpbmNpbmcgYW5hbHlzaXM6IOKAnENhbmFkaWFuIFJhaXNpbmcsIGVoLOKAnSBJbiBTb3VuZCBT

dHJ1Y3R1cmUgYW5kIFNlbnNlOiBTdHVkaWVzIGluIE1lbW9yeSBvZiBFZG11bmQgR3Vzc21hbiwg

d2hpY2ggZm9yIHNvbWUgcmVhc29uIHdhcyBwdWJsaXNoZWQgaW4gUG9sYW5kLg0KDQoNCk1pY2hh

ZWwgTmV3bWFuDQpQcm9mZXNzb3Igb2YgTGluZ3Vpc3RpY3MNCkRlcGFydG1lbnQgb2YgTGluZ3Vp

c3RpY3MgYW5kIENvbW11bmljYXRpb24gRGlzb3JkZXJzDQpRdWVlbnMgQ29sbGVnZS9DVU5ZDQoN

Cm1uZXdtYW5AcWMuY3VueS5lZHU8bWFpbHRvOm1uZXdtYW5AcWMuY3VueS5lZHU+DQoNCk9uIE5v

diAxNiwgMjAxNCwgYXQgMTI6NDAgUE0sIEpvZWwgUy4gQmVyc29uIDxCZXJzb25AQVRULk5FVDxt

YWlsdG86QmVyc29uQEFUVC5ORVQ+PiB3cm90ZToNCg0KLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLSBJ

bmZvcm1hdGlvbiBmcm9tIHRoZSBtYWlsIGhlYWRlciAtLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLQ0K

U2VuZGVyOiAgICAgICBBbWVyaWNhbiBEaWFsZWN0IFNvY2lldHkgPEFEUy1MQExJU1RTRVJWLlVH

QS5FRFU8bWFpbHRvOkFEUy1MQExJU1RTRVJWLlVHQS5FRFU+Pg0KUG9zdGVyOiAgICAgICAiSm9l

bCBTLiBCZXJzb24iIDxCZXJzb25AQVRULk5FVDxtYWlsdG86QmVyc29uQEFUVC5ORVQ+Pg0KU3Vi

amVjdDogICAgICBSZTogL2QvIGZvciBmbGFwcGVkIC90Lw0KLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t

LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t

LQ0KDQpJIGhhdmUgYSBoeXBvdGhlc2lzIC0tIE1hbnkgbWV0cm9wb2xpdGFuIE5ldyBZb3JrZXJz

IGRpc3Rpbmd1aXNoIG1vcmUNCnBob25lbWVzKiB0aGFuIG1hbnkgb3RoZXIgQW1lcmljYW5zIGR1

ZSB0byB0aGVpciBoZXJpdGFnZSBmcm9tDQplYXJseU5ldyBZb3JrIENpdHksIHdoaWNoIGhhZCB0

aGUgbW9zdCBoZXRlcm9nZW5lb3VzIGFuZCBwb2x5Z2xvdA0KcG9wdWxhdGlvbiBvZiB0aGUgY29s

b25pYWwgQW1lcmljYW4gcGVyaW9kPw0KDQoqIEkgc2F5IHBob25lbWVzIHNpbmNlIHNvbWUgb2Yg

dXMgY2FuIGhlYXIgImxhdHRlciIgdnMgImxhZGRlciIsDQoiYmV0dGluZycgdnMuICJiZWRkaW5n

Ii4gIndyaXRpbmciIHZzLiAicmlkaW5nIiwgIm1hdCIgdnMuICJtYWQiLA0KImxhdHMiIHZzLiAi

bGFkcyIuICBPciBhcmUgdGhlc2UgVCdzIGFuZCBEJ3MgYWxyZWFkeSBwaG9uZW1lcz8gIEFyZQ0K

dGhlIGFsdGVyZWQgdm93ZWxzIG9mIHRoZSBwcmUtL3QvIGFuZCBwcmUtL2QvIGVudmlyb25tZW50

cyBhbHNvIHBob25lbWVzPw0KDQpKb2VsDQoNCkF0IDExLzE2LzIwMTQgMTI6MTIgUE0sIExhdXJl

bmNlIEhvcm4gd3JvdGU6DQpPbiBOb3YgMTYsIDIwMTQsIGF0IDExOjU5IEFNLCBQYXVsIEEgSm9o

bnN0b24sIEpyLiB3cm90ZToNCg0KVGhhdCBjb3VsZCBiZS4gSW4gbWFueSBkaWFsZWN0cywgeW91

J2xsIGhhdmUgdm93ZWwNCmFsbG9waG9ueS0tZnJlcXVlbnRseSBsZW5ndGgsIGJ1dCBvZnRlbiBx

dWFsaXR5IGFzIHdlbGwsDQpkaXN0aW5ndWlzaGluZyBwcmUtL3QvIGZyb20gcHJlLS9kLyBlbnZp

cm9ubWVudHMuICBNYW55IG9mIG15DQpzdHVkZW50cyAoZnJvbSB2YXJpb3VzIHBhcnRzIG9mIE1J

KSBoYXZlIGZyb250LXNpZGUgQ2FuYWRpYW4NClJhaXNpbmcsIGFuZCBzbywgdGhleSBkaXN0aW5n

dWlzaCB3cml0ZXIvcmlkZXIgYXMgW0BJXSB2cy4gW2FJXQ0KYmVmb3JlIHRoZSBmbGFwIChvdGhl

cnMgaGF2ZSBsZW5ndGggZGlzdGluY3Rpb25zIGFsb25lLCBsaWtlDQpDaGljYWdvIG9yIENsZXZl

bGFuZCkuICBJIGRvbid0IGtub3cgYWJvdXQgbGF0dGVyL2xhZGRlciBhbmQgdGhlDQpsaWtlLCBz

aW5jZSBHcmVhdCBMYWtlcyBkaWFsZWN0cyBjYW4gdHVybiB0aGUgL2FlLyBpbnRvIFtlYWVdDQpi

ZWZvcmUgdm9pY2VkIGFuZCB2b2ljZWxlc3MgY29uc29uYW50cyBhbGlrZS4gIE9uIHRoZSBvdGhl

ciBoYW5kLCBJDQpoYXZlIHRoZSB1c3VhbCBNZXRybyBOWSBkaXN0aW5jdGlvbiBpbiBsYXR0ZXIv

bGFkZGVyOyBtb3N0DQpmcmVxdWVudGx5LCB0aGUgZmlyc3Qgb25lIGhhcyBhIGNlbnRyYWxpemVk

IFthZV0sIHRoZSBzZWNvbmQsIGENCmZyb250ZXIsIGxvbmdlciBhbmQgc2xpZ2h0bHkgcmFpc2Vk

IFthZV0gaW4gbXkgY2FzZSAob2NjYXNpb25hbGx5DQphbiBpbmdsaWRpbmcgZGlwaHRob25nKS4N

Cg0KSXMgdGhhdCB1c3VhbCBpbiBNZXRybyBOWT8gIEkgaGF2ZSB0aGUgbGVuZ3RoIGRpc3RpbmN0

aW9uIHlvdQ0KbWVudGlvbiBpbiAid3JpdGVyIi8icmlkZXIiIHdpdGhvdXQgdGhlIENhbmFkaWFu

IFJhaXNpbmcgcXVhbGl0eQ0KZGlzdGluY3Rpb24sIGFuZCBJIGhhdmUgY29tcGxldGVseSBkaWZm

ZXJlbnQgdm93ZWxzIGluIHRoZSBjbG9zZWQNCnN5bGxhYmxlcyBvZiAibGFkIiBhbmQgIihzKWxh

dCIgb3Igb2YgIm1hZCIvIm1hdCIsIGJ1dCBJIGZlZWwNCmltcHJlc3Npb25pc3RpY2FsbHkgYXMg

dGhvdWdoIEkgbWVyZ2UgImxhdHRlciIvImxhZGRlciIgYW5kDQoibWF0dGVyIi8ibWFkZGVyIi4g

IE9mIGNvdXJzZSwgYXMgTGFib3Ygd291bGQgcG9pbnQgb3V0LCBtYXliZSBJIGRvbid0Lg0KDQpM

SA0KDQotLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tDQpGcm9tOiAiSm9lbCBTLiBCZXJzb24i

IDxCZXJzb25AQVRULk5FVDxtYWlsdG86QmVyc29uQEFUVC5ORVQ+Pg0KVG86IEFEUy1MQExJU1RT

RVJWLlVHQS5FRFU8bWFpbHRvOkFEUy1MQExJU1RTRVJWLlVHQS5FRFU+DQpTZW50OiBTYXR1cmRh

eSwgTm92ZW1iZXIgMTUsIDIwMTQgMzo0ODo1OSBQTQ0KU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IC9kLyBmb3IgZmxh

cHBlZCAvdC8NCg0KLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLSBJbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBmcm9tIHRoZSBt

YWlsIGhlYWRlcg0KLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0NClNlbmRlcjogICAgICAgQW1lcmlj

YW4gRGlhbGVjdCBTb2NpZXR5IDxBRFMtTEBMSVNUU0VSVi5VR0EuRURVPG1haWx0bzpBRFMtTEBM

SVNUU0VSVi5VR0EuRURVPj4NClBvc3RlcjogICAgICAgIkpvZWwgUy4gQmVyc29uIiA8QmVyc29u

QEFUVC5ORVQ8bWFpbHRvOkJlcnNvbkBBVFQuTkVUPj4NClN1YmplY3Q6ICAgICAgUmU6IC9kLyBm

b3IgZmxhcHBlZCAvdC8NCg0KLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t

LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLQ0KDQpBbnN3ZXJpbmcgV2ls

c29uIGFsc28uDQoNCkkgY2FuIGhlYXIgYSBkaWZmZXJlbmNlIHdoZW4gSSBzcGVhayBrbm93aW5n

IHRoYXQgdGhlcmUgbWlnaHQgYmUgYQ0KZGlmZmVyZW5jZS4gIEFuZCBpdCBzb3VuZHMgKEkgdGhp

bmshKSBzb21ld2hhdCBsaWtlIHdoYXQgSm9uIGlzDQpkZXNjcmliaW5nLiAgSSB0aGluayBJIGV2

ZW4gbG93ZXIgdGhlIHRvbmUgb2YgdGhlICJhIiB3aGVuIEkgc2F5DQoibGFkZGVyIiBhcyBjb21w

YXJlZCB0byAibGF0dGVyIi4gIEJ1dCBhbSBJIGJpYXNpbmcgbXlzZWxmIHRvIHByb3ZlIGENCnBy

ZWNvbmNlaXZlZCBoeXBvdGhlc2lzPw0KDQpQcm9iYWJseSBteSB0ZXN0IHdvdWxkIG9ubHkgdGVs

bCBtZSB3aGF0IEkgY2FuICpoZWFyKiBpZiBJIGxpc3RlbmVkDQp0byBzb21lb25lIGVsc2Ugc3Bl

YWsgYSAocG90ZW50aWFsIG1pbmltYWwpIHBhaXIgLS0gc3VjaCBhcw0KbGF0dGVyL2xhZGRlciwg

YnV0dGVyL2J1ZGRlciwgYmV0dGVyL2JlZGRlci4gIEJ1dCB0aGVuIEkgd291bGQgaGF2ZQ0KdG8g

bGlzdGVuIHRvIHNvbWVvbmUgd2hvIG1ha2VzIHRoZSBkaXN0aW5jdGlvbiBpbiBzcGVha2luZywg

d291bGRuJ3QNCkk/DQoNCkpvZWwNCg0KQXQgMTEvMTUvMjAxNCAwODowOSBBTSwgSm9uYXRoYW4g

TGlnaHRlciB3cm90ZToNCkkgYmVsaWV2ZSBJIGNhbiBoZWFyIHRoZSBkaWZmZXJlbmNlIGFsdGhv

dWdoIGl0IGlzIHN1YnRsZS4NCg0KL2QvIHNvdW5kcyAoYW5kIGZlZWxzKSB0byBtZSBtaW51dGVs

eSBsb25nZXIgYW5kIG1vcmUgZW1waGF0aWMuIChBDQpwaG9ub2xvZ2lzdCBjb3VsZCBzYXkgdGhh

dCBiZXR0ZXIuKQ0KDQpNYW55IG9mIHVzIHdpbGwgcmVtZW1iZXIgZW50aXJlIGNsYXNzcm9vbXMg

b2Ygc3R1ZGVudHMgb2Ygd2hvbSBvbmx5DQp0d28gb3INCnRocmVlIGNvdWxkIGhlYXIgdGhlIGRp

ZmZlcmVuY2UgYmV0d2VlbiAvYS8gYW5kIC9DLyAoZS5nLiwgInBhIiBhbmQNCiJwYXcsIg0KImhv

dHRpZSIgYW5kICJoYXVnaHR5IikuICBQcmFjdGljZSBoZWxwZWQsIGJ1dCBpdCBkaWRuJ3QgaGVs

cA0KZXZlcnlib2R5Lg0KDQotLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t

LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0NClRoZSBBbWVyaWNhbiBEaWFsZWN0IFNvY2lldHkgLSBodHRw

Oi8vd3d3LmFtZXJpY2FuZGlhbGVjdC5vcmcNCg0KDQotLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t

LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0NClRoZSBBbWVyaWNhbiBEaWFsZWN0

IFNvY2lldHkgLSBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFtZXJpY2FuZGlhbGVjdC5vcmcNCg0KLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t

LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tDQpUaGUgQW1l

cmljYW4gRGlhbGVjdCBTb2NpZXR5IC0gaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbWVyaWNhbmRpYWxlY3Qub3JnDQoN

Ci0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t

LS0tLQ0KVGhlIEFtZXJpY2FuIERpYWxlY3QgU29jaWV0eSAtIGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYW1lcmljYW5k

aWFsZWN0Lm9yZw0KDQoNCi0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t

LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLQ0KVGhlIEFtZXJpY2FuIERpYWxlY3QgU29jaWV0eSAtIGh0dHA6
Ly93d3cuYW1lcmljYW5kaWFsZWN0Lm9yZw0K


An interesting analysis.


--
-Wilson
-----
All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to
come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
-Mark Twain

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org


------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org