[Ads-l] go for a "Burton"--a 1944 etymology guess

Thu Aug 20 20:07:25 UTC 2015

Garson, while "Cockney" rhyming slang usu. takes the binary form you
mention, there are exceptions.

E.g., "septic" for "American" (short for "septic tank" = Yank).

That isn't the "gone for certain/ a Burton" pattern, but it does show that
others exist.

I still feel, however, that "gone for certain" is a strained interpretation
that smacks loudly of folk etymology.

That gut reaction gains support from searches of Google Books for ["gone
for certain" + "RAF/ Blitz/ air force"]  Those search (remarkably) produces
only *two* hits out of a bajillion possible instances - neither of which
has anything to do with an aircrew or an airman being shot down.

Long ago I consulted Hunt & Pringle's _Service Slang_ for items related to
American military slang. The book is one more cartoon-illustrated, quickie
slang glossary of some historical,  but  limited etymological, value.

JL

On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 11:54 AM, ADSGarson O'Toole <
adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:

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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       ADSGarson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: go for a "Burton"--a 1944 etymology guess
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Welcome Peter and thanks for sharing an intriguing citation. Extracted
> text suggests that the discussion concerning "Gone for a Burton" was
> contained within an article that reviewed one or more books about
> slang.
>
> A snippet from the same page of "John O'London's Weekly" did mention a
> book about slang called "Service Slang" compiled by J. L. Hunt and A.
> G. Pringle publisher by Faber. It is possible that the phrase "Gone
> for a Burton" was contained within the book "Service Slang". The
> linkage to Cockney slang might also appear in "Service Slang".
> Alternatively, the article in "John O'London's" Weekly" might
> reference more than one book about slang. I have only extracted small
> sections of the full article. It is also possible that the article
> author made the linkage to Cockney slang without support from any
> book.
>
> In the Cockney slang examples I have seen the rhyme is employed during
> an intermediate stage. The final slang word does not rhyme with the
> initial target word. For example, "stairs" is transformed into
> "apples". The intermediate rhyming phrase is "apples and pears". The
> word "pears" rhymes with "stairs", but it is not used.
>
> Transforming "Gone for certain" to "Gone for a Burton" does not seem
> to match the Cockney slang derivation pattern although it might be
> some kind of intermediate stage. (This same point was made by Dan
> Goncharoff when discussing the linkage between "curtain" and
> "Burton".)
>
> Year: 1943
> Periodical: John O'London's Weekly
> Issues 1210-1223
> Quote Page 170
> Database: Google Books snippet; data may be inaccurate and should be
> verified on paper; probing with the year 1943 reveals snippets
> indicating that the volume does contain issues from 1943.
>
> [Begin extracted text]
> There are traces, too, of an older argot. The Cockney has taken his
> rhyming slang with him into the Services. "Cape of Good Hope" is still
> -- as it was in the last war -- "soap"; and "Gone for a Burton" is
> "Gone for certain." The compilers regret that, owing to space, they
> have had to omit many examples of rhyming slang ; though one may enter
> a slight protest that they have noted so famous a derivation as "tin
> titfor" (steel helmet) as "seagoing term" only, and ...
> [End extracted text]
>
> [Begin extracted text from an earlier position on the same page]
> ... imagine any circles which have not been made acquainted with at
> least some phrases of Service slang. My own reaction to reading
> through Service Slang (collected by J. L. Hunt and A. G. Pringle and
> published by Faber at the modest price ...
> [End extracted text]
>
> Special thanks to Stephen for accessing the journal "Great Britain and
> the East" and sharing what he found on the page containing the phrase
> "went for a Burton".
>
> Garson
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 7:19 PM, Jonathan Lighter
> <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
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> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > Subject:      Re: go for a "Burton"--a 1944 etymology guess
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Could be - but that would seem to indicate that the ale really is behind
> it.
> >
> > FWIW, "gone for certain" strikes me as somewhat unidiomatic, at least in
> > the context of air warfare.
> >
> > JL
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 4:39 PM, Peter Morris <
> > peter_morris_1 at blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
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> >> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> Poster:       Peter Morris <peter_morris_1 at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK>
> >> Subject:      go for a "Burton"--a 1944 etymology guess
> >>
> >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> This is my first posting. I hope it attaches to the thread correctly.
> >> Apologies if not.
> >>
> >>
> >> Here's  a different early (1943) suggested etymology:=20
> >> http://tinyurl.com/pt3emtn
> >>
> >> "The Cockney has taken his rhyming slang with him into the
> >> Services. "Cape of Good Hope" is still -as it was in the last=20
> >> war- "soap"; and "gone for a Burton" is "Gone for certain."
> >>
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth."
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