[Ads-l] Proverb: Seek revenge and you should dig two graves, one for yourself (Attributed to Confucius by Jeff Bezos, May 31, 2016)

Thu Jun 2 03:12:00 UTC 2016

According to 辛德林记 (http://www.xuexx.com/archives/5063), this does come from Kǒngzi (Confucius), from the Analects. 

A. Charles Muller’s translation can be seen at http://www.acmuller.net/con-dao/analects.html:

[2-16] 子曰。攻乎異端、斯害也己。
[2:16] The Master said: “To throw oneself into strange teachings is quite dangerous.”

Chen Yanyan(Aria) (https://baldeaglepanda.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/yanyanchen_xaiu.pdf) says those quotes are used in the series “REVENGE”.

Moreover, the Chinese online news site People’s Daily Online (http://en.people.cn/90001/90777/90855/6801847.html) doesn’t blink with this association.

I don’t know Chinese, and while I can see something like “harm to yourself” in the second half, I have difficulty believing this matches the English.

Janet (http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2291) notes that:

1. "The Mikado's Empire" (http://bit.ly/1r3haho) mentioned in the original e-mail.

2. "A Handbook of Colloquial Japanese” by Basil Hall Chamberlain (http://bit.ly/1ROXlQW) Google-dated to 1889 refers to the expression:

Hito wo noroeba, ana fŭtatsu
Curse a man, and there will be two graves.

I don’t know why the first “u” in “futatsu” has a caron, but the source Japanese should be 人を呪えば穴二つ, which can be more directly translated as “If [you] curse a person, two holes."

故事ことわざ辞典 (http://kotowaza-allguide.com/hi/hitowonorowabaana.html) confirms this, explaining that “holes” means “graves” and that the meaning behind it is, “If you harm another, you will eventually also be harmed.” No origin is provided for this quote, but it seems no closer to the Analects quote above than the English does to me.

At this point, my vote is with the Japanese origin, particularly given how easy the two countries are mixed up.

Benjamin Barrett
Formerly of Seattle, WA

> On 1 Jun 2016, at 19:17, ADSGarson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> 
> Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos participated in an hour-long interview recently,
> and he was asked about the billionaire Peter Thiel who funded a
> lawsuit against the website Gawker. While discussing the topic Bezos
> used an expression that he tentatively attributed to Confucius, and I
> was asked to explore the provenance of the saying.
> 
> The Wikiquote webpage for Confucius places the saying into the
> "Misattributed: Not Chinese" section and states that an English
> language source in 1924 called the saying a Japanese proverb.
> Wikiquote presented no citation to justify the claim.
> 
> In 1876 William Elliot Griffis published a history book about Japan
> that contained a related expression that he labeled a Japanese
> proverb. A close match to the modern saying appeared in 1915. At that
> time it was also described as a Japanese saying. By 1951 an instance
> was labeled Chinese.
> 
> Earlier evidence for these transitions/milestones would be great.
> Dated evidence in Japanese or Chinese would be very interesting.
> Thanks.
> 
> [ref] YouTube video, Title: Jeff Bezos vs. Peter Thiel and Donald
> Trump | Jeff Bezos, CEO Amazon | Code Conference 2016, Uploaded on May
> 31, 2016, Uploaded by Recode, (Quotation starts at 24 minute 13
> seconds of 1 hour 20 minutes 27 seconds) Description: Amazon CEO Jeff
> Bezos talks with The Verge's Walt Mossberg, (Accessed on youtube.com
> on June 1, 2016) link [/ref]
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guVxubbQQKE
> 
> [Begin excerpt]
> It's attributed to Confucius. Who knows if it's really Confucius or
> not, but: "Seek revenge and you should dig two graves, one for
> yourself".
> [End excerpt]
> 
> 
> [ref] 1876, The Mikado's Empire, Book I: History of Japan From 660
> B.C. to 1872 A.D., Book II: Personal Experiences, Observations, and
> Studies in Japan: 1870-1874 by William Elliot Griffis (Late of the
> Imperial University of Tokio, Japan), Chapter XIV: Japanese Proverbs,
> Start Page 504, Quote Page 511, Harper & Brothers Publishers, New
> York. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref]
> 
> https://books.google.com/books?id=Ld_BNvbt3MgC&q=%22two+graves%22+#v=snippet&
> 
> [Begin excerpt]
> If you call down a curse on any one, look out for two graves.
> ("Curses, like young chickens, always come home to roost.")
> [End excerpt]
> 
> 
> [ref] 1885 March 1, The Sun, Japanese Wise Sayings, Quote Page 3,
> Column 6, New York, New York. (Newspapers_com)[/ref]
> 
> [Begin excerpt]
> An American gentleman, lately returned to this city after a prolonged
> residence in Japan, was recently discovered at the Stock Exchange by a
> reporter for The Sun. . .  (Skip)
> "Exactly. But you cannot call many of their proverbs stale or
> unprofitable. For instance, 'Dig two graves before cursing a neighbor'
> and 'Tell no secrets to thy servant' are not bad rules to follow."
> [End excerpt]
> 
> 
> [ref] 1885 March 22, The Detroit Free Press, Japanese Wise Sayings,
> Quote Page 6, Column 3, Detroit, Michigan. (Newspapers_com)[/ref]
> 
> [Start excerpt]
> Even a cur may bark at his own gate.
> 
> Dig two graves before cursing a neighbor.
> 
> The silent man is often worth listening to. He is a wise man who can
> preach a short sermon.
> [End excerpt]
> 
> 
> [ref] 1915, Peloubet's Select Notes on the International Lessons for
> 1915 by Rev. F. N. Peloubet and Prof. Amos. R. Wells, Volume 41,
> Second Quarter, Lesson VII: May 16, David Spares Saul: 1 Samuel 26,
> Start Page 159, Quote Page 165, Published by W. A. Wilde Company,
> Boston, Massachusetts. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref]
> 
> https://books.google.com/books?id=A5JVAAAAYAAJ&q=%22two+graves%22#v=snippet&
> 
> [Begin excerpt]
> Illustrations. In the perfection of feudalism, the Japanese taught
> vengeance as a part of ethics and the vendetta as a fine art; yet even
> they out of long experience coined also the proverb, 'If you would
> revenge yourself, dig two graves.' The plotter usually fell into his
> own pit."—William Elliot Griffis.
> [End excerpt]
> 
> 
> [ref] 1951 May 12, Beckley Post-Herald, Waking 'Em Up by Eugene L.
> Scott, Quote Page 4, Column 2, Beckley, West Virginia.
> (Newspapers_com)[/ref]
> 
> [Begin excerpt]
> Sobs shook his slim body when he was freed. But afterwards, he said,
> quoting a Chinese proverb: "He who seeks revenge digs two graves."
> [End excerpt]
> 
> 
> [ref] 1955 May 5, The Augusta Chronicle, Walter Winchell: Broadway,
> the street of dreams, Quote Page 4A, Column 7, Augusta, Georgia.
> (GenealogyBank)[/ref]
> 
> [Begin excerpt]
> At the Admiral: "Made his parents very happy. Changed his name" ... In
> the Stork: "Before you seek Revenge with someone be sure and dig two
> graves."
> [End excerpt]
> 
> 
> [ref] 1957 December 14, Albany Democrat-Herald, Bible in the classroom
> (Letter to the Editor from A. W. Birky), Quote Page 6, Column 3,
> Albany, Oregon. (Newspapers_com)[/ref]
> 
> [Begin excerpt]
> It is fair to quote Socrates, "He that would take revenge better dig
> two graves," and class as over-religious the quotation from the Bible,
> "With what measure ye mete it shall be measured to you again"?
> [End excerpt]
> 
> 
> [ref] 1968 April 10, Anderson Daily Bulletin, Winchell Everywhere by
> Walter Winchell, Quote Page 5, Column 2, Anderson, Indiana.
> (Newspapers_com)[/ref]
> 
> [Begin excerpt]
> As the Chinese have said for centuries: When You Seek Revenge Dig Two Graves.
> [End excerpt]
> 
> 
> [ref] 1969 April 6, Omaha World Herald, Nasser's Policies Place Him
> "at Point of Economic Death" by Ernest Cuneo, Quote Page 13B, Column
> 2, Omaha, Nebraska. (GenealogyBank)[/ref]
> 
> [Begin excerpt]
> By and large, Nasser's policies have validated that old Chinese
> proverb which declares that he who seeks revenge must dig two graves.
> [End excerpt]

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