[Ads-l] on national grammar day
Baron, Dennis E
debaron at ILLINOIS.EDU
Sun Mar 6 18:00:19 UTC 2016
Larry,
Re: Bp Lowth: Your comment prompted me to look more closely at the workI. Lowth does use that double negative comment in the 1763 edition, p. 139. It does not appear in the first ed., 1762. I too have seen those many quotes. Perhaps there are later printings of the 1762 that he silently expanded. I know he added many of his rules and strictures in later editions. He does not, however, condemn the “I don’t got none” sort of double negative that is the bugbear of critics today — or more properly, I ain’t got one? To echo my comment on let’s eat grandpa, no one in their right mind hears “I don’t got no money” and assume the speaker is flush.
I have clarified my comment on Lowth, too: what I meant to say was that he is a quintessential prescriptivist, correcting Shakespeare and KJV, but when it comes to punctuation, he sort of throws up his hands.
DB
Dennis Baron
Professor of English and Linguistics
Department of English
University of Illinois
608 S. Wright St.
Urbana, IL 61801
office: 217-305-0067
English Dept: 217-333-2390
fax: 217-333-4321
http://www.illinois.edu/goto/debaron<http://illinois.edu/goto/debaron>
read the Web of Language:
https://illinois.edu/blog/view/25
On Mar 5, 2016, at 11:00 PM, ADS-L automatic digest system <LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU<mailto:LISTSERV at listserv.uga.edu>> wrote:
There are 7 messages totaling 370 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Peter Reitan's work on origins of Alfred E. Neuman and "What -- Me Worry?"
(3)
2. On National Grammar Day . . . (2)
3. "Grey" in AmE
4. dihydrogen monoxide
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Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 18:09:39 +0000
From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" <gcohen at MST.EDU<mailto:gcohen at mst.edu>>
Subject: Peter Reitan's work on origins of Alfred E. Neuman and "What -- Me Worry?"
Independent scholar Peter Reitan shared the item below with several people, and with his permission I now forward it to ads-l:
http://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2016/03/03/a-boy-with-no-birthday-turns-sixty/
G. Cohen
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Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 21:57:18 +0000
From: "Baron, Dennis E" <debaron at ILLINOIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: On National Grammar Day . . .
Replying to Larry Horn’s comment,
I agree, Larry, that Lowth was prescriptivist incarnate, and I do mention that he opposed double negatives in GGT—though I don’t quote him--but curiously, my pdf copy of the 1762 Lowth has nothing on double negatives, not on p. 126, not anywhere. And though, in 1982, there were no pdfs, when I thumbed through the pages back then I didn’t see that either. He must have added that in later editions — he did that with other proscriptions (passive voice, maybe? don’t remember offhand). I have, though, sharpened the post to take your comment into consideration! Thx.
DB
On Mar 4, 2016, at 11:00 PM, ADS-L automatic digest system <LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU<mailto:LISTSERV at listserv.uga.edu>> wrote:
Two negative in English destroy one another, or are equivalent to an affirmative
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Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 17:31:29 -0500
From: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: On National Grammar Day . . .
On Mar 5, 2016, at 4:57 PM, Baron, Dennis E <debaron at ILLINOIS.EDU> wrote:
Replying to Larry Horn’s comment,
I agree, Larry, that Lowth was prescriptivist incarnate, and I do mention that he opposed double negatives in GGT—though I don’t quote him--but curiously, my pdf copy of the 1762 Lowth has nothing on double negatives, not on p. 126, not anywhere. And though, in 1982, there were no pdfs, when I thumbed through the pages back then I didn’t see that either. He must have added that in later editions — he did that with other proscriptions (passive voice, maybe? don’t remember offhand). I have, though, sharpened the post to take your comment into consideration! Thx.
Hmmm. Interesting. I've found a number of other places on the web where the quote is attributed to Robert Lowth, with the same date (1762) and I assume the same publication (his _Short Introduction to English Grammar, with Critical Notes_). Here's one that's more scholarly than some, based on the research of a distinguished historian of the English language, the delightfully yclept Ingrid Tieken Boon von Ostade:
http://research.leiden.edu/news/bishop-lowth-was-not-a-fool.html
but on the other hand I agree with Dennis that the passage in question does not appear in the work cited, at least in the copy I found online.
I'll try to sort out this contretemps, if only to satisfy myself (and maybe Dennis), since in my message I was citing an old paper of mine ("Duplex negatio affirmat...: The economy of double negation", 1991) and I shudder to think I got the reference wrong. On the bright side, the bishop's estate hasn't sued yet.
LH
On Mar 4, 2016, at 11:00 PM, ADS-L automatic digest system <LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU<mailto:LISTSERV at listserv.uga.edu>> wrote:
Two negative in English destroy one another, or are equivalent to an affirmative
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Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 18:04:04 -0500
From: Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Peter Reitan's work on origins of Alfred E. Neuman and "What -- Me Worry?"
"... the dog barking at the gramophone for RCA."
The dog is *listening to* _His Master's Voice_, as RCA-Victor's slogan
clearly stated, not "*barking at* the gramomphone."
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 1:09 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard <gcohen at mst.edu>
wrote:
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Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" <gcohen at MST.EDU>
Subject: Peter Reitan's work on origins of Alfred E. Neuman and "What
--
Me Worry?"
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Independent scholar Peter Reitan shared the item below with several
people,=
and with his permission I now forward it to ads-l:
http://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2016/03/03/a-boy-with-no-birthday-turns-=
sixty/
G. Cohen =
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The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
--
-Wilson
-----
All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to
come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
-Mark Twain
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Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 18:35:19 -0500
From: Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Peter Reitan's work on origins of Alfred E. Neuman and "What -- Me Worry?"
"... C-47 bomber
The Douglas C[argo]-47 "Skytrain" was a cargo plane that could never have
been used as a bomber. The Boeing B[omber]-47 is post-WWII.
“Tod den Juden” = "Death to (the) Jews."
OT: Longview, not "Longhorn," Texas. was the birthplace of my mother and my
maternal grandmother.
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 6:04 PM, Wilson Gray <hwgray at gmail.com> wrote:
"... the dog barking at the gramophone for RCA."
The dog is *listening to* _His Master's Voice_, as RCA-Victor's slogan
clearly stated, not "*barking at* the gramomphone."
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 1:09 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard <gcohen at mst.edu>
wrote:
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Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" <gcohen at MST.EDU>
Subject: Peter Reitan's work on origins of Alfred E. Neuman and
"What --
Me Worry?"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Independent scholar Peter Reitan shared the item below with several
people,=
and with his permission I now forward it to ads-l:
http://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2016/03/03/a-boy-with-no-birthday-turns-=
sixty/
<http://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2016/03/03/a-boy-with-no-birthday-turns-=sixty/>
G. Cohen =
------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
--
-Wilson
-----
All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to
come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
-Mark Twain
--
-Wilson
-----
All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to
come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
-Mark Twain
------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 19:50:39 -0500
From: Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: "Grey" in AmE
All of my literate life, I've found it necessary to specify, "That's 'Gray'
with an _A_." But, as we say in the 'hood, "That's just me," roughly
equivalent to Larry's "YMMV."
FWIW, I have the impression that the name of the color was once uniformly
spelled _grey_ on both sides of the Atlantic, whereas the surname could be
either "Gray" or "Grey," with the latter being the default spelling. But I
wouldn't bet money on it.
In like manner, I am also under the impression that, nowadays, American
spelling uses only _gray_, unless circumstances clearly preclude it.
"Tarzan" is the alias of Lord John Clayton, Viscount Greystoke, Sixth Earl
of Greystoke, never spelled "Graystoke."
On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 2:12 PM, Charles Law <chaslaw at gmail.com> wrote:
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Poster: Charles Law <chaslaw at GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: "Grey" in AmE
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If you sey so, I agree.
On 3/4/16, 6:56 PM, "American Dialect Society on behalf of Mark Mandel" <
ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU on behalf of thnidu at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
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Poster: Mark Mandel <thnidu at GMAIL.COM>
Subject: "Grey" in AmE
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Part of a thread on a copyeditors' list I belong to:
Original post:
On Mar 4, 2016 12:10 PM
Subject: "Grey" not dead yet
From the wild:
"Grey is the new beige."
---Crate & Barrel
http://www.crateandbarrel.com/special-features/how-we-create-natural-mix/1
Maybe they like the visual effect of the e's in "grey," "beige," and
"neutral."
My reply:
So do I. Native AmE speaker, but I've used that particular British
spelling
for many years, for just that reason.
Others:
I'd estimate that about a third of my American clients (mostly fiction
writers), even when we specify AmE and use CMOS [Chicago Manual of Style]
and M-W [Merriam-Webster], the whole nine yards, prefer grey over gray.
It's fascinating to me, a UK-born Anglo-Canadian who has always used grey
but has no problem switching to gray.
Grey is alive and well, even in AmE. I just sent a book to the printer
for which that spelling was specified on the style sheet. US author. US
copyeditor (not me, in this case). People are entitled to their
preference,
non?
Mark Mandel
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--
-Wilson
-----
All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to
come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
-Mark Twain
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 20:04:05 -0800
From: Benjamin Barrett <mail.barretts at GMAIL.COM>
Subject: dihydrogen monoxide
I learned in chemistry that water is never referred to by its chemical name, dihydrogen monoxide, but for some time now, people have been making spoof warnings of the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide and posting them on social media. Wiktionary (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dihydrogen_monoxide <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dihydrogen_monoxide>) has this as a word and Wikipedia has it as a hoax (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihydrogen_monoxide_hoax), dating it to 1983, which is before I took chemistry. The Oxford Dictionary site does not have this word.
Benjamin Barrett
Formerly of Seattle, WA
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End of ADS-L Digest - 4 Mar 2016 to 5 Mar 2016 (#2016-66)
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