[Ads-l] Heard: _you guys_ = "you women"

[Jonathan Lighter]

The continued belief in the "novelty" of the usage comes, I assume, from
the oft repeated insistence that "guy" must and can only refer to men and
boys.

So the "novelty" is seen as another SOTA rather than a victory for gender
equality.

If that's what it is. More likely it's of some linguistic interest but of
little social significance.

JL



On Sat, Mar 26, 2016 at 9:37 PM, Wilson Gray <hwgray at gmail.com> wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Heard: _you guys_ = "you women"
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I'm not surprised. I've heard it since ca. 1969, at least. Yet, it keeps
> coming up in discussions as though it were some kind of new departure, for
> unknown reasons, and I've gotten tired of it. The BE standard has always
> been the gender-free _you-all_ and _y'all_, since 1619. But it wasn't until
> I entered UC Davis that I was in a position to be cognizant of how "the
> other group" addressed its women, and searching "_you guys_ addressed to
> women" is beyond my abilities.
>
> On Sat, Mar 26, 2016 at 8:57 PM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
> wrote:
>
> > Earlier such cites in HDAS, including this one from a 1932 American
> Speec=
> h
> > article:
> >
> > One girl to others:  "Come on, guys".
> >
> > A 1942 article in the Journal of General Psychology cites a similar
> > utterance, "Come on, you guys", and comments "'Guy' is used without
> regar=
> d
> > to age or sex'", although I suspect this held in 1942 largely for plural
> > vocatives (with or without the pronoun) or for non-referential cases in
> > which someone (of either sex) is described as "a good/regular/real guy".
> > Jon has the same sense, glossing 'a person of either sex regarded as
> > decent, down-to-earth, good company, etc.; (hence) (in pl., usu.
> followin=
> g
> > "you") persons of either sex' and adding the time-stamp (not to be
> confus=
> ed
> > with those more recent stamps) "[The second nuance has become notably
> > common in direct address among young women only ca1940].
> >
> > (I'm not sure on whether Jon's "among" is intended to characterize young
> > women as addressees or as speakers, but the cites do pick up right around
> > then, although the 1932 AmSp one above indicates "(you) guys" for female
> > addressess wasn't unknown in the previous decade.   Don't know what sort
> =
> of
> > data we can find for nuns as addressees; maybe it's the informality
> that'=
> s
> > more surprising than the gender-nonspecificity.
> >
> > LH
> >
> > > On Mar 26, 2016, at 5:37 PM, Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> > >
> > > In an episode of Diagnosis Murder, Dick Van Dyke as Mark Sloan, MD,
> say=
> s
> > to
> > > a group of nuns in their convent:
> > >
> > > "Here is what I want _you guys_ to do."
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__en.wikipedia.org_w=
>
> iki_Diagnosis-3A-5FMurder-5F-28season-5F1-29&d=3DAwIBaQ&c=3D-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MU=
>
> cV7Sdqw&r=3DwFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=3Dn5pK3Ud_dgRHd1g=
>
> R07req4nSH986J0V9n-DxT4-qBgQ&s=3DXdEnhYQ7GbEX-YZIkWGH3TCvZ6UeLE9uTr8UEWyZCJ=
> 8&e=3D
> > > Episode 19: "Sister Michael Wants You"
> > > Date: May 13, 1994
> > > --
> > > -Wilson
> > > -----
> > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to
> > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> > > -Mark Twain
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > The American Dialect Society -
> >
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.americandialect=
>
> .org&d=3DAwIBaQ&c=3D-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=3DwFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsS=
>
> xPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=3Dn5pK3Ud_dgRHd1gR07req4nSH986J0V9n-DxT4-qBgQ&s=3DimpZwjl=
> -6rJhlnCZccZU01ZuqbV57vZW9w4H9xpbbB0&e=3D
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
>
>
>
> --=20
> -Wilson
> -----
> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to
> come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> -Mark Twain
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>



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