[Ads-l] "old boy" = the devil
Robin Hamilton
robin.hamilton3 at VIRGINMEDIA.COM
Wed Sep 21 22:12:42 UTC 2016
re "sate" -- perhaps should be interpreted "was seated", and pronounced to rhyme
with "fate".
"y" -- clearly representing "th" for thorn, as Joel expands -- but how was it
written in the original MS (which I guiltily confess I haven't got round to
looking at yet)? Were seventeenth century New Englanders already into Ye Olde
English Tea Shoppe?
"bedshed" = "bed's head" = "head of the bed".
Having looked at the MS scrap (finally), the scribe uses "y" [sic] to represent
the (both voiced and voiceless, but only ever at the beginning of a word?) "th"
sound.
___________________
Question for paleographers/ historians of printing:
Earlier THORN and WYNN (for "th", and in the written or printed text, a
positional rather than a phonological variant) and YOGH (for both "y" and "g")
caused problems for printers from the get go. English printers [Scottish
printers developed different solutions] simply disambiguated YOGH as either "g"
or "y", and (for a period, I'm not quite sure how long) represented an original
THORN as "y[superscript]e".
This obviously shows up most clearly [can't think of anywhere to point to
off-hand, sorry] when printing a manuscript written pre-1400 (roughly) in the
period post-1600 (maybee) -- thus problems with the text of La3amond's [3=YOGH]
_Brut_ that Joel adduced earlier.
Anyway, the use of the glyph "y" in a late seventeenth century MS caught my eye,
and I'm hoping someone on the list may be able to fill in the details around
this.
HEALTH WARNING: I'm well outside my zone in the comments above, so I may have
screwed up quite considerably in the account I give. I'll be more than happy to
stand corrected. I'm not sure my remarks are good enough even for government
work ...
Robin Hamilton
>
> On 21 September 2016 at 20:31 Joel Berson <berson at ATT.NET> wrote:
>
>
> Clearly I meant to write more ...
>
> "Sate" is surely "sat"; adding a terminal e was common, I think. "Old
> nick or else old craften sate over ye bedshed" must be "old nick or else old
> craften sat over the bedstead". In my decaying memory are old tales and
> pictures (nightmares? encounters?) with witches, succubi, lamias, etc. perched
> on bedsteads.
>
>
> OED under sit (v): 1818 Byron Childe Harold: Canto IV i. 3 Venice
> sate in state, thron'd on her hundred isles.
>
> "Bedshed" is not in the OED. Perhaps it's a misreading of "bedsted"?
>
>
> Joel
>
>
>
> From: Joel Berson <berson at ATT.NET>
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2016 3:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [ADS-L] "old boy" = the devil
>
> "Sate" is surely "sat": "
>
>
> From: Benjamin Barrett <mail.barretts at GMAIL.COM>
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2016 12:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [ADS-L] "old boy" = the devil
>
> http://www.blue-moon-manor.com/faq.html#2 uses the word “crafter” to
> describe someone who uses witchcraft. FWIW. BB
>
> > On 20 Sep 2016, at 20:53, Benjamin Barrett <mail.barretts at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > 1. The Boston Globe is happy with “cratten.”
> >
> > http://bit.ly/2csPajG
> > What the Salem witch trials taught us about language
> > by Britt Peterson
> >
> > ——
> > The documents feature obsolete words and words that have shifted their
> > meaning, including “silly,” to mean ignorant; “paragon,” a wool or silk
> > fabric; “old cratten,” the devil; “burling,” meaning whirling or
> > twisting; and “behaged,” meaning bewitched.
> > ——
> >
> > I’m not convinced, however. The “crafty” meaning seems at least likely.
> >
> > 2. http://bit.ly/2cSZoHm
> > The Century Dictionary: An Encyclopedic Lexicon of the English Language,
> > Part 5
> > ed. William Dwight Whitney
> >
> > craft < ME craften, play tricks.
> >
> > 3. cræft (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cræft)
> >
> > a device, especially magical
> > wæs æfre unbegunnen Scyppend, se ðe gemacode swylcne cræft: the Creator,
> > who made such a work, was ever without beginning.
> > deceit, fraud
> > cræfta gehwilc byð cealde forgolden: all deceits will be forgotten
> > coldly
> >
> > 4. The word appears in an ME dictionary at http://bit.ly/2cl60gR.
> >
> > FWIW, it seems also possible that the final letter is an “r” though I
> > did not find anything convincing on Google Books.
> > ——
> >
> > However, the text seems to be differentiating the devil from the
> > craften: old nick or else old craften sate over ye bedshed
> >
> > I suppose “else” could mean “that is to say.”
> >
> > Also, what does “sate” mean? I looked at the jpeg, and it seems to be
> > more likely to be “safe” (is she not worried because Old Nick/Old
> > Crafter is safe over the bed, i.e., watching over her?) but I never read
> > these sorts of documents.
> >
> > Benjamin Barrett
> > Formerly of Seattle, WA
> >
> >> On 20 Sep 2016, at 20:29, Joel Berson <berson at ATT.NET> wrote:
> >>
> >> For "crafter" instead of "craften":
> >>
> >>
> >> How about La'y'amons Brut, or Chronicle of Britain, a poetical
> >> semi-Saxon ..., Volume 2By Layamon: Glossary, p. 543. craeft, craft:
> >> craft, guile; pl. craften. Perhaps the 1692 deposition is meant to be
> >> "crafter", guiler, deceiver, the Devil?? Or is this reaching at straws
> >> too? Google Books, full view, (which I have not enlarged),
> >> https://books.google.com/books?id=bmQIAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA543&dq=craften&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiloYGdvp_PAhUj64MKHX3XD1QQ6AEITzAJ#v=onepage&q=craften&f=false
> >>
> >>
> >> Joel
> >>
> >> From: Joel Berson <berson at ATT.NET>
> >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 11:09 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [ADS-L] "old boy" = the devil + OED antedating of "Old
> >> Roger".
> >>
> >> Only if "craften" or "craffen" or "cratter" lead nowhere also.
> >>
> >> Joel
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Robin Hamilton <robin.hamilton3 at VIRGINMEDIA.COM>
> >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 3:24 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [ADS-L] "old boy" = the devil + OED antedating of "Old
> >> Roger".
> >>
> >> Could it be a mis-hearing on the part of the person writing the words
> >> down
> >> originally? Or am I grasping after straws?
> >>
> >> RH.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> On 20 September 2016 at 19:24 Hugo <hugovk at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> The more I think about this, the more convinced I am that the term
> >>>> used
> >>>> was actually "cratter", and the sense was "old creature".
> >>>
> >>>> JB: I've looked only at the two 1890's transcriptions, and the
> >>>> manuscript Hugo provided to the list. But in the manuscript I did not
> >>>> look further than the portion that used "old man", and I don't know
> >>>> whether Hugo's scrap shows "cratten".
> >>>
> >>> http://salem.lib.virginia.edu/archives/ecca/medium/ecca1157r.jpg
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> http://salem.lib.virginia.edu/texts/tei/swp?term=cratten÷_id=n69.5&chapter_id=n69
> >>>
> >>> It's the fourth line from the end, fourth word along (above
> >>> "mother").
> >>> Looks like an "n" in the manuscript, and distinct from other "r"
> >>> letters. If not "cratten", it could be "craften" or "craffen", but
> >>> I
> >>> don't think those are any more helpful.
> >>>
> >>> Hugo
>
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