[Ads-l] Precursor to a "New York Minute"

Tue May 30 19:52:44 UTC 2017

All true. But, there was a Fort Toronto by the water before there was York.

DanG

On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 10:21 AM, Peter Reitan <pjreitan at hotmail.com> wrote:

> http://torontoist.com/2014/03/toronto-is-born/
>
> "Renaming York as Toronto angered some provincial legislators. During a
> March 1, 1834 debate in the assembly, detractors like William Jarvis
> claimed the change would cause confusion. John Willison felt it
> disrespected the memory of the most recent Duke of York, and pointed out
> that neither the state nor the city of New York had changed its name."
> ________________________________
> From: Dan Goncharoff<mailto:thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
> Sent: ‎5/‎28/‎2017 5:49
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU<mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Precursor to a "New York Minute"
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Precursor to a "New York Minute"
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------------
>
> I believe York was just north of Toronto, and is now incorporated in it.
> Terminus of the Underground Railroad.
>
> On May 28, 2017 12:08 AM, "Peter Reitan" <pjreitan at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Interesting.
> >
> > And I just learned that Toronto was called York until 1834.
> >
> > I also went back and looked at the 1831 citation, and the tavern they
> were
> > visiting was in St. Catharine's, Ontario.
> >
> > Might "York" have been Toronto in this particular case?
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
> > George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2017 5:11 PM
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Precursor to a "New York Minute"
> >
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
> > Subject:      Re: Precursor to a "New York Minute"
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > -------------------
> >
> > In the early 19th Century -- maybe before, too -- New York City was
> > sometimes referred to as "York".  This isn't easy to document, but
> here's a
> > couple of passages from a minute booklet of humorous sketches and songs:
> >
> >             New-York, Jan. 1, 1824.
> >             Got in York safe as a bee in a bucket, put old Brindle in
> Uncle
> > Josh's stable -- found all the folks well, except Aunt Polly most dead
> with
> > the small pox; hardly knew her, she looked so plaguey odd -- her face put
> > me in mind of an old fashioned cullender
> >
> >
> >
> > "Hewlett at Home.=E2=80=9D
> >             Heard a great deal of talk since I've been in York 'bout the
> > African Theatre -- I and Harry went tother night -- good many white folks
> > there; Harry told me it was Hewlett's Benefit -- seen "Hewlett at Home"
> on
> > the bills; I guess he did'nt like to let folks know he was "at Home"
> > before=
> > .
> >
> > [The writer is a rube from Goshen, N. Y., visiting the big city and
> writing
> > letters home.]
> >
> > Simon Snipe, *The Sports of New York, by Simon Snipe, Esq.; Containing A
> > Peep at the Grand Military Ball, =E2=80=9CHewlett at Home=E2=80=9D
> > *[etc.,]=
> >   1824.  (The
> > only known copy of this is at the Houghton Library, Harvard University.)
> >
> > GAT
> >
> > On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 4:45 PM, Peter Reitan <pjreitan at hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Years ago Barry Popik traced the modern emergence of "New York Minute"
> to
> > > Texas in the early 1950s.
> > >
> > >
> > > A couple years ago, I found an early example from 1870, in a story
> about
> > > shooting a wildcat (a catamount) in the oil regions of Pennsylvania.
> > >
> > >
> > > It seemed as though the coincidence of the early example in an oil
> region
> > > and the emergence of the expression in the oil region of Texas 80 years
> > > later suggested a possible way the expression made it to Texas.
> > >
> > >
> > > However, there were isolated examples of the expression in 1872 Kansas
> > an=
> > d
> > > 1908 Vermont, and a few other possible (yet ambiguous) examples.
> > >
> > >
> > > I wrote a blog post about it at the time.
> > >
> > > https://esnpc.blogspot.com/2014/11/wildcats-and-
> > wildcatters-very-long.htm=
> > l
> > >
> > >
> > > I just ran across a possible precursor idiom - possibly with a slightly
> > > different meaning.
> > >
> > >
> > > The expression a "York minute" shows up as early as 1831, with several
> > > examples throughout the 1840s, '50s, ' 60s and '70s.
> > >
> > >
> > > An example from Buffalo, New York in 1860 suggests that a "York minute"
> > i=
> > s
> > > a short period of time, but longer than an actual minute:
> > >
> > >
> > > [excerpt]
> > >
> > > "There is one portion of the day," as your correspondent very justly
> > > remarks, "which may, with propriety, be called the ladies' hour.  Just
> > so=
> > .
> > > That "hour," however, is to the day, what the "York minute" is to the
> > > ordinary hour; viz: two hours and a half.
> > >
> > >
> > > Buffalo Commercial, November 24, 1860, page 3 (Newspapers.com).
> > >
> > >
> > > My initial inclination was to think that "York" refers to York,
> England,
> > > perhaps a sleepier town than London, where time isn't so precious or
> > > precise.
> > >
> > >
> > > But I am not so sure.  It might be American.  The earliest example of
> the
> > > expression I have found so far - 1831 - is from an English writer
> > > describing the scene at an American tavern.  He sets several apparently
> > > local Americanisms apart in quotations - including "York minute."  I am
> > > also not so sure that the "York minute" is always something more than a
> > > minute, as described in Buffalo in 1860.  Many of the early examples,
> > > including the earliest example, a "York minute" appears to be some
> brief
> > > moment of time - not as long as a minute:
> > >
> > >
> > > 1831 [excerpt]
> > >
> > > By the time they have all taken a "drink" or two a-piece, and
> swallowed a
> > > mouthful of water after it, you will hear "guessing" and "calculating"
> > > enough, undoubtedly, and something better, "I don't think!"  Be careful
> > > they do not tread on your toes at this time, and if you wish to retain
> a
> > > seat, do not get up from it even for a "York minute."
> > >
> > >
> > > Joseph Pickering, Inquiries of an Emigrant; Being the Narrative of an
> > > English Farmer from the year 1824 to 1830, London, E. Wilson, 1831,
> page
> > =
> > 93
> > > (HathiTrust).
> > >
> > >
> > > In 1873, a story about a Northwoods trapper shooting a panther appears
> to
> > > be a rewritten version of the 1870 Pennsylvania story with "New York
> > > Minute," but using "York minute"  instead:
> > >
> > >
> > > [excerpt]
> > >
> > > But no, he raised the old rifle and fired.  In one-fourth of a York
> > > minute, Bill Stewart's exact time for skinning a Montezuma bullhead,
> all
> > > the clothes upon him would not have made a bib for a china doll.
> > >
> > >
> > > Chicago Daily Tribune, January 5, 1873, page 2 (Newspapers.com).
> > >
> > >
> > > 1871
> > >
> > > [excerpt]
> > >
> > > Mrs. Matt Peel's Minstrels give their last concert in this city, for
> the
> > > present, at Touro Hall tonight.  If you have the blues, these darkies
> > wil=
> > l
> > > shake them off in three York minutes.
> > >
> > >
> > > Hartford Courant, February 12 1861, page 2.
> > >
> > >
> > > For me, the big question is why was it a "York minute" and was it
> > > originally English.  The change from York to New York seems natural in
> > th=
> > e
> > > US, but if it is American, why would it have been "York minute" in the
> > > first place, unless it was an old English expression that survived in
> the
> > > US.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --=20
> > George A. Thompson
> > The Guy Who Still Looks Stuff Up in Books.
> > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
> > Univ. Pr., 1998.
> >
> > But when aroused at the Trump of Doom / Ye shall start, bold kings, from
> > your lowly tomb. . .
> > L. H. Sigourney, "Burial of Mazeen", Poems.  Boston, 1827, p. 112
> >
> > The Trump of Doom -- affectionately (of course) also known as The
> Dunghill
> > Toadstool.  (Here's a picture of one.)
> > http://www.parliament.uk/worksofart/artwork/james-
> > gillray/an-excrescence---=
> > Page cannot be found<http://www.parliament.uk/worksofart/artwork/james-
> > gillray/an-excrescence---=>
> > www.parliament.uk<http://www.parliament.uk>
> > The page you are trying to access is not available.Please return to the
> > homepage to navigate through to our main content sections.  ...
> >
> >
> > a-fungus-alias-a-toadstool-upon-a-dunghill/3851
> >
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