[Ads-l] RES: "the full monty" again

Sat Feb 3 20:43:20 UTC 2018

OK, so I must be having a senior moment, but I am sure I remember "full
monty" from early on in life, like 50's or 60's. It has always meant to the
fullest extent, all in, no holds barred, the whole shebang, etc. To the
extent that, when the movie came out and my (Brazilian) wife said " I guess
full monty" means taking off all your clothes," I said no it doesn't, it
just means the whole shebang, to the fullest extent, etc. In other words I
was perfectly at home with the phrase and needed no interpretation of the
name of the film. (Just had a look at Oxford - they say origin goes back to
1970's, so, OK, maybe, but definitely not the 1985-90 of Random House.)
DAD

Enviada em: sábado, 3 de fevereiro de 2018 08:28
Para: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Assunto: "the full monty" again

Poster:       Stephen Goranson <goranson at DUKE.EDU>
Subject:      "the full monty" again
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Yesterday I read an obituary for the screenwriter David Sherwin [1] and a r=
emembrance by Malcolm McDowell.[2] The actor McDowell began;

"The screenwriter David Sherwin was a special friend. We went through many =
girlfriends, marriages, triumphs and disasters together. I even wore his fa=
ther=92s demob coat from after the second world war in the opening shot of =
If=85."<https://www.theguardian.com/film/if>
The demob (demobilization) coat reminded me of the proposal that Montague B=
urton suits after WW II might be related to "the full monty," though no cit=
ed attestations near WWII support that. Previously (Aug 11, 2015) I wrote a=
bout the potential relation to the Sherwin and McDowell 1973 film "O Lucky =
Man!"
<https://www.theguardian.com/film/if>

***

________________________________
It has often been observed that some early attestations of "the full monty"=
are from Northern England, but it is not always noted that what may be the=
second-earliest known text was also published there, in Sheffield. In Moun=
tain (magazine), 1981. Perhaps earlier uses are also in northern in periodi=
cals allowing informal language, such as, e.g., The Sheffield Spectator (So=
cial, Sporting and Industrial Life of Sheffield) 1965-.

Field Marshall Montgomery was well known for all-out effort, though a speci=
fic link to the phrase has not been established. For instance, in a message=
, then-secret but eventually much-discussed, Monty in Sept. 1944 urged upon=
Eisenhower a single "full blooded thrust" to Berlin, which would have, amo=
ng other things, diverted resources from not-shy Gen. Patton. Later, when m=
aking his case orally, Ike responded; "Steady, Monty. You can't talk to me =
like that...."

Montague Burton, though relatively somewhat lesser known, and evidently muc=
h less-often known as Monty (suits were called Burtons, for sure, and, mayb=
e, Montys), is the favorite of some commenters, yet the link again is not p=
roven. Among the many options, might more than one Monty have been involved=
rather than a necessary even/or? A full dress suit might fit both.

The Tailor of Panama by John le Carr=E9, though published in 1996 is worth =
noting (as Michael Quinion did). Its date, at least, is before the famous m=
ovie, a movie which may have flipped the meaning from the full clothing to =
the full unclothing. Of course it is fiction, but presumably intended by th=
e skilled author to be realistic when a character, Uncle Benny, is remember=
ed as having used the phrase "the full Monty" twenty years earlier. Benny, =
a tailor, was a Jewish immigrant to the UK, from Lithuania (sometime border=
s)--as was Meshe David Osinsky, Montague Maurice Burton.

The 1979 use (reported by Fred Shapiro) has a TV exec in a pub apparently u=
p north "sitting there with the full monty on, big gold rings, all that." T=
his was oral history apparently transcribed by a reporter, so I would not m=
ake too much of the lower case m (after all, it's not in quotes, either). I=
s that a full suit and accessories or the full decorations, bling? (Remembe=
r: gold.)

If only, in the north of England, slightly earlier, closer to 1979 than Bur=
ton, who died in 1952, there was some remarkable suit, and a tailor named M=
onty.

As luck would have it, "O Lucky Man!", a surrealistic 1973 film, has just t=
hat. Maybe relevant, maybe not--either as influence for or influence by the=
phrase. There are different length movie cuts (in releases, 2 DVDs, and so=
me youtube), so page numbers of the 1973 published script may be best used,=
if detailed discussion is sought. (If there is interest, I'll expand.) In =
a northern boarding house the protagonist, a ground-coffee salesman (Malcol=
m McDowell), who has just been assigned the northeast of England (complete =
with boundaries and a map) is given a "golden-thread" suit by Monty (just M=
onty, no last name given) the tailor (Ralph Richardson)--and it fits. It se=
ems to protect him, though his wished girlfriend (played by Helen Mirren) l=
ooks at it and says "nylon" and "not all that glitters is gold."
Stephen Goranson
http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/

[1]

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/feb/02/david-sherwin

[2]

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/feb/02/malcolm-mcdowell-on-david-sher=
win-obituary

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