[Ads-l] Berkeley and gender neutral words

[Laurence Horn]

> On Jul 20, 2019, at 2:08 AM, Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> 
>> the religions most strongly associated with the word *priest* in the US
> and
>> (most? all?) other Anglophone societies restrict that function to males.
> 
> True only of Catholicism.

That was my point; Anglican/Episcopalian priests, whether male or female, have always been called priests, and have been around since the 1970s.  Cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordination_of_women_in_the_Anglican_Communion
> 
> On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 12:46 AM Mark Mandel <markamandel at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> IMHO, *priestess* and *priest* are exactly parallel, but it happens that
>> the religions most strongly associated with the word *priest* in the US and
>> (most? all?) other Anglophone societies restrict that function to males.
>> 
>> MAM
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 11:48 PM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> And “priestess” (=/= ‘female priest).  And then there’s
>>> “governor”/“governess" and other asymmetrical pairs of that ilk.
>>> 
>>>> On Jul 19, 2019, at 11:45 PM, Peter Reitan <pjreitan at HOTMAIL.COM>
>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> See also, "Huntress."
>>>> 
>>>> Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>> 
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
>>> Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>>> Sent: Friday, July 19, 2019 6:16:23 PM
>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>> Subject: Re: Berkeley and gender neutral words
>>>> 
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>>> Subject:      Re: Berkeley and gender neutral words
>>>> 
>>> 
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> "Goddess" is somehow doing well.
>>>> 
>>>> The neutrality craze is based in part on the elementary fallacy that a
>>>> word's meaning is dictated by its etymology.  Another significant basis
>>> is
>>>> the a priori belief that speakers of English are as sensitive to nuance
>>> as
>>>> are a subset of people with Ph.Ds and must, in any case, be protected
>>> from
>>>> "-man" words, which are dangerously, irremediably sexist and malign.
>>>> 
>>>> JL
>>>> 
>>>> JL
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 8:42 PM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jul 19, 2019, at 8:01 PM, Mark Mandel <markamandel at GMAIL.COM>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The Latin means "No one is an heir or a living person.=E2=80=9D
>>>>> 
>>>>> Mark=E2=80=99s finger meant =E2=80=9Cof=E2=80=9D rather than
>>> =E2=80=9Cor=
>>>> =E2=80=9D; the claim as it stands is
>>>>> rather too strong.  More seriously, I don=E2=80=99t get the argument
>> to
>>> r=
>>>> eplace
>>>>> =E2=80=9Cheir=E2=80=9D, which is parallel to =E2=80=9Cactor=E2=80=9D
>>> and =
>>>> arguably also to =E2=80=9Cpoet=E2=80=9D.  By all
>>>>> means, let=E2=80=99s dump =E2=80=9Cheiress=E2=80=9D,
>>> =E2=80=9Cadventuress=
>>>> =E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cactress=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Csculptress=E2=80=9D, or
>>>>> =E2=80=9Cpoetess=E2=80=9D, although it could be (and has been) argued
>>> tha=
>>>> t =E2=80=9Cactress=E2=80=9D
>>>>> performs a service that the others don=E2=80=99t, at least until
>>> sex-neut=
>>>> ral
>>>>> casting becomes universal; the tradeoff for sex specification may be
>>> deem=
>>>> ed
>>>>> worth it.  =E2=80=9CWaitress=E2=80=9D is another case, and I grant we
>>> all=
>>>> have different
>>>>> cutoff points. (Mine is rather different from Jon=E2=80=99s, for
>>> example.=
>>>> )  But the
>>>>> fact that =E2=80=9Cheiress=E2=80=9D can be plausibly argued to be
>>> sexist =
>>>> on the grounds
>>>>> that it marks sex of the referent when it=E2=80=99s irrelevant, I
>>> don=E2=
>>>> =80=99t see why
>>>>> that consideration should infect =E2=80=9Cheir=E2=80=9D, which as
>> noted
>>> b=
>>>> elow really is
>>>>> just =E2=80=98one who=E2=80=99, on grounds of both usage and
>> etymology.
>>>>> 
>>>>> LH
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 4:35 PM ADSGarson O'Toole <
>>>>> adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The word [*heir*] is correctly applied to either a male or a female,
>>>>>>> although,
>>>>>>> in the latter sense, heiress n.   has been in general use since 17th
>>>>>>> cent. In Law a person is not called an heir to any property until,
>>>>>>> through the death of its possessor, he becomes entitled to it (
>>>>>>> *nemo est heres viventis*).
>>>>>>> [End excerpt]
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --=20
>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>>> truth."
>>>> 
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> 
> 
> -- 
> -Wilson
> -----
> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to
> come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> -Mark Twain
> 
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