[Ads-l] Modern Proverb: A good loser is no good (Robert Zuppke Nov 6, 1924) (UNCLASSIFIED)

Sun Jun 30 14:02:00 UTC 2019

Thanks. I may look into this again. For now I'll note that  OCLC/WorldCat is one of the sources that apparently suggests otherwise by giving two different sets of birth and death dates. I would not have thought the poet's birth and death dates--in a prominent family--would be uncertain. But maybe.
Stephen

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From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of Charles C Doyle <cdoyle at UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2019 9:33 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Modern Proverb: A good loser is no good (Robert Zuppke Nov 6, 1924) (UNCLASSIFIED)

The compiler of Wits Recreations (1640), a vast collection of epigrams (increasingly vast in later editions), is usually said to be Sir John Mennes, with the appended "Outlandish Proverbs" (outlandish 'from the provinces') having been collected by the poet George Herbert (1593-1633), that appendix, in the 1641 and subsequent editions, being title "Jacula Prudentum."

--Charlie

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From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of Stephen Goranson <goranson at DUKE.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2019 4:18:49 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modern Proverb: A good loser is no good (Robert Zuppke Nov 6, 1924) (UNCLASSIFIED)

In case anyone wonders, the Wits recreations author George Herbert (1592-1637) is a different individual than his near contemporary, the fine poet George Herbert (1593-1633).
Stephen
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From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of ADSGarson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2019 10:28 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Modern Proverb: A good loser is no good (Robert Zuppke Nov 6, 1924) (UNCLASSIFIED)

Statements that fit the template "Show me an X, and I'll show you a Y"
were circulating in the 1600s. George Herbert's compilation
"Outlandish Proverbs" appeared posthumously in 1640, and it contained
the following statement (modified to use modern spelling): Show me a
liar, and I will show thee a thief.

Year: 1640
Title: Wits recreations. Selected from the finest fancies of moderne muses
Author: Herbert, George, 1592-1637., Marshall, William, fl. 1617-1650, engraver.
Title: Wits recreations. Selected from the finest fancies of moderne muses
Section: Outlandish PROVERBS.
Publication info: London : Printed by R[ichard] H[odgkinson and Thomas
Paine] for Humphry Blunden at the Castle in Corn-hill
Database: Early English Books Online

[Begin excerpt]
652. Shew me a lyer, and ile shew thee a theefe.
[End excerpt]

H. L. Mencken (and another reference) give earlier citations in the
1600s, but I do not know the precise spelling and phrasing. Mencken
seems to give a modernized version.

[Begin excerpt]
Show me a liar, and I will show thee a thief.
THOMAS ADAMS: Sermon, 1629
[End excerpt]

The 1673 citation below contains another phrase fitting the template.

Year: 1673
Title: Counsellor Manners, his last legacy to his son enriched and
embellished with grave adviso's, pat histories, and ingenious
proverbs, apologues, and apophthegms
Author: Dare, Josiah, 17th cent.
Publication info: London : Printed for Edward Gough and are to be sold
by most booksellers in London
Database: Early English Books Online

[Begin excerpt]
For as we say, Shew me a Lyer, and I will shew thee a Thief; so we may
say, Shew me a common Swearer, and I will shew thee a common Lyer
[End excerpt]

I do not have access to the scans, so the data above is from the
publicly accessible database.
Garson

On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 8:31 PM Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> More:
> 1855 _Hartford Daily Courant_ (Dec. 27)  2: "Show me a Loco, gentlemen,"
> said he, "and I'll show you a liar!"
>
> 1859 Ibid. (Oct. 31) 2: An exchange says it was a remark of Dr. Waddell,
> "show me a boy with a horse, dog and gun, and I'll show you a boy who will
> never come to anything."
>  JL
>
> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 5:39 PM ADSGarson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Here is a good precursor match for "Show me a good loser and I'll show
> > you a loser" that is a bit earlier.
> >
> > Date: April 2, 1963
> > Newspaper: San Francisco Chronicle
> > Newspaper Location: San Francisco, California
> > Article: Smile When You Call Him Sport
> > Author: Bob Stevens
> > Quote Page 44, Column 8
> > Database: GenealogyBank
> >
> > [Begin excerpt]
> > Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a consistent loser.
> > [End excerpt]
> >
> > Garson
> >
> > On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 5:07 PM ADSGarson O'Toole
> > <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > "Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser" has matches in 1963
> > > as indicated in my previous message. When I explored the saying I did
> > > find a close precursor in 1960.
> > >
> > > The quotation below is from coach Carl Rees of the University of
> > Pittsburgh.
> > >
> > > Date: April 17, 1960
> > > Newspaper: The Pittsburgh Press
> > > Newspaper Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
> > > Article: Och Tires of Losing, Shot Records Suffer
> > > Author: Roy McHugh
> > > Section 3, Quote Page 3, Column 5
> > > Database: Newspapers.com
> > >
> > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.newspapers.com_image_141354180_-3Fterms-3Dloser&d=DwIFaQ&c=imBPVzF25OnBgGmVOlcsiEgHoG1i6YHLR0Sj_gZ4adc&r=uUVa-8oDL2EzfbuMuowoUadHHcJ7pjul6iFkS5Pd--8&m=m6wOe2P9iVMKm5cZJSVngXj-MgeTBk4YMdM_mCZvjvM&s=DxNojZj5axFi-BvRIw7I_DdrtpUgi5fKDgkWYJ4PehI&e=
> > >
> > > [Begin excerpt]
> > > "Show me a good loser and I'll show you a guy who is going to lose
> > > most of the time," he volunteered.
> > > [End excerpt]
> > >
> > > Garson
> > >
> > > On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 4:50 PM ADSGarson O'Toole
> > > <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> > > > > Of interest:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1969 _Springfield_ [Mass.] _Union_ (May 7) 12: Clue to Student
> > Anger: 'A
> > > > > Good Loser is a Loser' ... The [student] sign [at Princeton] said,
> > 'Show me
> > > > > a Good Loser and I'll Show You a Loser.'
> > > > > . . .
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for your response, JL. Barry Popik has an entry on this general
> > > > topic. There are many variant expressions. I linked to Barry's piece
> > > > in my original ADS post and at the end of the QI article. (My QI
> > > > article was focused on the early Zuppke quotation.)
> > > >
> > > >
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.barrypopik.com_index.php_new-5Fyork-5Fcity_entry_show-5Fme-5Fa-5Fgood-5Floser-5Fand-5Fill-5Fshow-5Fyou-5Fa-5Floser&d=DwIFaQ&c=imBPVzF25OnBgGmVOlcsiEgHoG1i6YHLR0Sj_gZ4adc&r=uUVa-8oDL2EzfbuMuowoUadHHcJ7pjul6iFkS5Pd--8&m=m6wOe2P9iVMKm5cZJSVngXj-MgeTBk4YMdM_mCZvjvM&s=0cj43Fv7qSpz-YohLR0-H_SAuhYWCldb6TtBxOiUHdw&e=
> > > >
> > > > [Begin excerpt from Barry's article]
> > > > 21 June 1963, Life magazine, pg. 87, col. 2:
> > > > “Hell,” he (Frankie Albert, an All-American quarterback—ed.) says, “in
> > > > football we were out to kill the opponent. Show me a good loser and
> > > > I’ll show you a loser.”
> > > > [End excerpt]
> > > >
> > > > Garson
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=DwIFaQ&c=imBPVzF25OnBgGmVOlcsiEgHoG1i6YHLR0Sj_gZ4adc&r=uUVa-8oDL2EzfbuMuowoUadHHcJ7pjul6iFkS5Pd--8&m=m6wOe2P9iVMKm5cZJSVngXj-MgeTBk4YMdM_mCZvjvM&s=zgcUz7hjChqUSGUwG3iMe1icTicJNpGO9LqklECbLso&e=
> >
>
>
> --
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>
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