[Ads-l] to "dutch"

Mon Dec 28 00:55:42 UTC 2020

I found an article in the Brooklyn Daily Eagle from January 5, 1896, that
attributes familiarity to "Dutch Treat" to the book Snarleyyow, by
Captain Frederick
Marryat, written in 1837.

An online search of the book found 42 references to "Dutch", none of which
seem to refer to anyone paying for themselves, but perhaps a more intense
reading is required.

On Sun, Dec 27, 2020, 4:49 PM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu> wrote:

> > On Dec 27, 2020, at 4:21 PM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> wrote:
> >
> > Dan,
> >
> > If this was true in the 1800's, I'm persuaded.
> >
> > Larry,
> >
> > Most of these are first recorded long after the 17th C. herring wars.
>
> Well, perhaps, but it seems reasonable to assume the animus remained.
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 3:57 PM Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> I am not sure this is true. Even today, German servers normally record a
> >> separate bill for each person, even marking beers or pitchers on an
> >> individual's Deckel. It is not a big stretch to say that German beer
> halls
> >> in the US in the 19th century used the same practice, which was called
> >> "going Dutch".
> >>
> >> On Sun, Dec 27, 2020, 3:44 PM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> But “Dutch treat" figures as part of a much larger set of slurs and
> >>> epithets denigrating the Dutch that stem from the years in which the
> >>> Britain and Holland were engaged in the “herring wars” for supremacy of
> >> the
> >>> North Sea, as itemized in Farmer & Henley, including inter alia:
> >>>
> >>> Dutch act:  suicide
> >>> Dutch bargain:  a bargain all on one side
> >>> Dutch-clock:  a bedpan; a wife
> >>> Dutch concert/medley:  a raucous hubbub
> >>> Dutch consolation:  Job’s comfort (= “could be worse”)
> >>> Dutch courage:  pot-valiancy, courage due to intoxication
> >>> Dutch fuck:  the practice of lighting one cigarette from another
> >>> Dutch milk:  beer
> >>> Dutch treat:  an outing at which one pays one’s own way
> >>> Dutch widow:  a prostitute
> >>> Dutch wife:  a bolster (on a bed)
> >>>
> >>> —very much along the lines of:
> >>>
> >>> Irish apricot (apple, lemon):  a potato
> >>> Irishman’s dinner:  a fast
> >>> Irish evidence:  false witness
> >>> Irish kiss:  a slap in the face
> >>> Irish promotion:  a pay-cut
> >>> Irish twins:  two siblings who are not twins but are born less than a
> >> year
> >>> apart
> >>> Irish wedding:  the emptying of a cesspool
> >>>
> >>> LH
> >>>
> >>>> On Dec 27, 2020, at 2:43 PM, Peter Reitan <pjreitan at HOTMAIL.COM>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I assumed that impression could have come from "German" or "Dutch"
> >>> comedians who spoke in "dialect".
> >>>>
> >>>> Weber and Fields were active during that period.  Several examples of
> >>> their humor are available on youtube.
> >>>>
> >>>> https://youtu.be/l75t6Fmydqk
> >>>> ________________________________
> >>>> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
> >>> Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> >>>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 10:52:55 AM
> >>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>>> Subject: Re: to "dutch"
> >>>>
> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>> -----------------------
> >>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> >>>> Subject:      Re: to "dutch"
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>> It sounds like adhockery to me, since I'm unaware of any tradition
> that
> >>>> Germans "make themselves say what they don't mean." The Irish were
> >>>> associated with absurd blunders ("bulls"), making the nonexistent
> >> "Irish
> >>>> book" a more likely expression of that idea.
> >>>>
> >>>> Germans were notorious instead for their accents, lager, and sausages.
> >>>> Vaudeville stereotyping was common, but no more so than for other
> >> ethnic
> >>>> groups.
> >>>>
> >>>> Interesting find, though.
> >>>>
> >>>> JL
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 11:34 AM Peter Reitan <pjreitan at hotmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> An early explanation of the word suggests it was "derived from the
> >> habit
> >>>>> some ignorant Germans have of making themselves say what they don't
> >>> mean,
> >>>>> and the flippant sports apply the term to a book that 'wins
> backward,'
> >>> or
> >>>>> stands to lose no matter which horse wons the race."
> >>>>> https://www.newspapers.com/clip/66134635/the-los-angeles-times/
> >>>>>
> >>>>> LA Times, October 25, 1903, page 23.
> >>>>> ________________________________
> >>>>> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
> >>>>> Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 7:33:28 AM
> >>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>>>> Subject: to "dutch"
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>>>> -----------------------
> >>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>>>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> >>>>> Subject:      to "dutch"
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "To lay bets in such a way as to win by covering all possibilities
> >>>>> proportionately; also fig."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Not in OED.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1902 _St. Paul Globe_ (Dec. 21) 33: When the book was "Dutched," it
> >>> meant
> >>>>> that the player turned the tables on the bookie, and played every
> >> horse
> >>> in
> >>>>> the race, certain of winning on practically all. ...In the days when
> >> the
> >>>>> men in the ring had the large slates, standing up in full view, on
> >> which
> >>>>> the prices were clearly written in large figures, it was an easy
> >> matter
> >>> to
> >>>>> "Dutch" the books. [How-to details follow.]
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1910 _Washington Times_ (Sept. 4) 12: The Cubs will be stronger
> >>> favorites
> >>>>> in Chicago than in Philadelphia. Fine chance to "Dutch the book."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1914 _Evening Bulletin _ (Providence, R.I.) (Sept. 11) Sec. III 9: At
> >>> the
> >>>>> beginning of the season these sporting men backed the champions at
> >>> prices
> >>>>> of 1 to 2 and 1 to 3. They are now endeavoring to lay off as a matter
> >> of
> >>>>> protection, to Dutch the book, in other words.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1916 _Denver Rocky Mountain News_ (Dec. 3) (Want Ads Section) 3: FOR
> >>> SALE -
> >>>>> ACRES AND RANCHES... A Chance to Dutch the Book...for $300 under
> >> value,
> >>>>> raise vegetables and chickens; you can't lose.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1924 _San Francisco Chronicle_ (Oct. 2) (Sports) 2: One could easily
> >>> "dutch
> >>>>> the book" by betting on Washington in New York and the Giants in San
> >>>>> Francisco. On such a basis, one would wager $1000 in New York to win
> >>> $1200
> >>>>> and $1000 in San Francisco to win $1250.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1932 _San Francisco Chronicle_ (June 14) (Sports) 15: In the East you
> >>> might
> >>>>> bet $800 on Schmeling against $1000. In San Francisco you would then
> >>> wager
> >>>>> $800 on Sharkey. What would happen? You would stand to win $200 no
> >>> matter
> >>>>> who might win. Of course, in the case of a draw, you would be
> upsticks
> >>> and
> >>>>> nobody hurt. But it is not always easy to make sure of "Dutching the
> >>> book."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1986 _Jersey Journal_ (Jersey City) (Apr. 14) 24: So get ready to
> >> dutch
> >>> the
> >>>>> book.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The origin? Evidently < "Dutch book" (not in OED), 'a bookmaker's
> >>> inexpert
> >>>>> odds that allow a bettor to profit by wagering proportionately on all
> >>>>> possibilities; also fig.'
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1894 _Evansville [Ind.] Courier and Press_ (June 15) 7: Parties
> ...who
> >>> seem
> >>>>> content to be called bookmakers even if they do offer to the public
> >>> what is
> >>>>> commonly known in the ring as a Dutch book....[T]heir patrons get the
> >>> best
> >>>>> of it, as long as it lasts.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1895 _San Francisco Chronicle_ (Jan. 9)  10: Then Joe went after
> Motor
> >>>>> money. What kind of a Dutch book did Joe have with Motor at 13 to 5,
> >>>>> Realization at 8 to 5, and Elise at 6 to 1?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1911 _Evening World_ (N.Y.C.) (Mar. 2) (Daily Mag.):  Concentrate!
> The
> >>>>> fellow who plays for General Results is making a Dutch book on
> >> himself!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1930 _Times-Union_ (Albany, N.Y.) (JUne 8) B-5:  Obviously Shaw could
> >>> not
> >>>>> lay these prices under any other system for the reason that he would
> >>> likely
> >>>>> be making a "dutch" book.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Why "Dutch" (presumably "German")?  The quest goes on.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> JL
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> >>> truth."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> >>> truth."
> >>>>
> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>>>
> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth."
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org