[Ads-l] Hep: Gerald Cohen's publication and the 7 earliest uses known to me

Fri Feb 7 14:43:47 UTC 2020

"Made" is a participial adjective, a form of the verb.

Fred Shapiro

________________________________
From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of Stephen Goranson <goranson at DUKE.EDU>
Sent: Friday, February 7, 2020 8:22 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hep: Gerald Cohen's publication and the 7 earliest uses known to me

PS Can, say, a verb in US slang produce an adjective?
An offer you can choose to refuse: "a made man."
SG
________________________________
From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of Stephen Goranson <goranson at DUKE.EDU>
Sent: Friday, February 7, 2020 5:34 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Subject: [ADS-L] Hep: Gerald Cohen's publication and the 7 earliest uses known to me

Thanks.

I have received—both on list and off list—pro and con responses to the proposed etymology of hep. And, yes, Garson, mentioning (the oft-used) “he’p” was relevant (as is “hept”), thanks.

Of course more evidence might hep, I mean help, and I have tried to provide new evidence (several antedatings; good hep’s not easy to find!), evidence that calls into question some of the proposals (e.g., the Circus Joe Hepp one). I still think it is the best so far (and by far) explanation--and likely. I especially appreciated views (on and off list) from those who have actually looked into the proposed explanations.

Though perhaps I should tread with caution on hypothetical uses: Was Lassie au currant when she (or maybe he on TV) knew Timmy was in trouble? And who cares and why? (Btw, does one need a real monkey to play monkey in the middle? Or salugi?) Well, maybe, Lassie, as the only one (besides readers or TV viewers) was up to date. But that is not what I consider a parallel case, as Timmy, in this hypothetical example, did not tell (or presumably would not have told) Lassie to get hep. Different story, different senses, (misleadingly?) mashed up.

Could the etymology be considered by some a “leap”? Evidently, yes.

More relevantly, do “leaps” ever occur in English?

Is plugging in—retrojecting--an old sense to test a new sense a reliable test?

Is now inoperative etymological fallacy?

Thanks

Stephen Goranson

https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fpeople.duke.edu%2F~goranson%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cfred.shapiro%40yale.edu%7Ceb31743450a74120a70308d7abd0dbb7%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C637166785837431349&sdata=5JGvjMQFgsx%2FeE4JRliz%2FdmzQD0bjcKDvyhV5mPNkZw%3D&reserved=0

On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 3:36 PM ADSGarson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Thanks for your responses LH and Fred. I have not studied this topic;
> hence, I do not currently have an opinion. I shared the citation for
> "he'p" because I thought it might be pertinent and helpful.
>
> Here is a 1907 citation featuring slang from the racetrack domain.
> "GOT HEP" and "gets hep" seem to mean "gained knowledge".
> [.......]
> Garson
>
> On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 4:13 PM Shapiro, Fred <fred.shapiro at yale.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> > I have not seen Jerry's publication, nor until this moment ever given
> any thought to the etymology of "hep," but I agree with Larry's
> characterization of this theory of the etymology of "hep" as "a fairly
> healthy leap."  Indeed, I would go further and opine that the "he'p"
> etymology strikes me as very unlikely.
> >
> > Of the 7 earliest uses known to Stephen, only one of them makes any
> sense if one substitutes the word "help" for "hep."  "Help" is not even the
> same part of speech as "hep."
> >
> > Fred
________________________________
> > From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
> Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 6, 2020 2:58 PM
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Subject: Re: Hep: Gerald Cohen's publication and the 7 earliest uses
> known to me
> >
> > > On Feb 6, 2020, at 2:37 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole <
> adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> > >
> > > Gerald Cohen's may already have several examples of the following.
> > > In 1892 several newspapers printed a story that employed the
> > > dialectical spelling "get he'p" for "get help".
[.....]
> > >
> > > Garson
> >
> > OK, but it’s still a fairly healthy leap from this compositional use,
> where he’p = help, to the one where “(get) hep” = ‘get wise’.  When Timmy
> told Lassie to get he(l)p, he wasn’t trying to make sure she was  with it
> or au courant.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 1:23 PM Stephen Goranson <goranson at duke.edu>
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I now have a copy of Gerald Cohen, "Hep/Hip Again" from Comments on
> Etymology, May, 2018, pages 43-45.
> > >>
> > >> If I may quote two sentences from page 43:
> > >> "_Hep_ probably derives from the Southern variant form of _help_,
> viz. _hep_.
> > >> A jazz player whose playing was weak might have been advised to "get
> hep" (i.e., help); such help/tutoring from an experienced jazz player could
> make a great difference."
> > >>
> > >> I agree with the first sentence. And Jerry got there before I did!
> > >>
> > >> I am currently a bit less in agreement with the second sentence. One
> reason is that, as far as the earliest examples go (see below, some not
> reported here before), no music setting (much less jazz) seems to obtain,
> at least early on. Nor a circus setting, etc.
> > >> More to come. Comments (pro or con or otherwise) welcome.
> > >> ***
> > >>
> > >> 1899, Feb. 12, Sunday, The Times, Washington, DC.  p. 13, col. 2.
> > >> The Night Hawk's Woes.  The Cabbie Details his Sorrows to the Copper.
> (From the Chicago Chronicle) [1, whole article available online]
> > >> <start quote, cabman speaking>
> > >> Cold? On the dead, it was colder in that kitchen than any of them
> Klondike suckers
> > >> ever heard about. An' as soon as I get out I'm hep that the water's
> froze.
> > >> <end quote>
> > >>
> > >> 1902, Jan. 3, Fri. , The Republic, St. Louis, MO p. 6 col. 2
> > >> In a race track scheme story with "slang." Here, "man of mines" is a
> long-shot bettor rich from lead and zinc mining.
> > >> <start>
> > >> The understanding that Fessenden had was that he was to get $800 of
> the plunder for putting the man of mines "hep to the good thing."
> > >> <end>
> > >>
> > >> 1903, July 6, Evening World, NY,  10/7 " Allow me, please, to put you
> hep to this oceanside thing."
> > >>
> > >> 1903, Sept 21, Evening World, NY, [someone upon seeing a supposedly
> French Waiter] " slinging hash or wearing livery gets hep."
> > >>
> > >> 1903, Nov. 25,  Evening World, NY, 8/5  "....With your kind
> permission and attention I'll put you hep to the finish."
> > >>
> > >> 1904, Sept. 2, Evening World, NY "I was put hep to the scenario"
> > >>
> > >> 1905 "...for not having put him hep to the way things had been
> standing with me."
> > >>
> > >> Stephen Goranson

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttp-3A__www.americandialect.org%26d%3DDwIF-g%26c%3DimBPVzF25OnBgGmVOlcsiEgHoG1i6YHLR0Sj_gZ4adc%26r%3DuUVa-8oDL2EzfbuMuowoUadHHcJ7pjul6iFkS5Pd--8%26m%3DzwD2PSPWwwkgQ6gfWfpqEOkGRDnKnBICIu7aGE6NnNM%26s%3DwF_iwDtMEf7A1Tgt3Jwx1OsWKphes2vQqaWrkuomNbk%26e&data=02%7C01%7Cfred.shapiro%40yale.edu%7Ceb31743450a74120a70308d7abd0dbb7%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C637166785837431349&sdata=Kxg%2BKu1WmLrTaoYlEVtNIjfJyo98uc9g%2BtBN9NsRme0%3D&reserved=0=

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.americandialect.org&data=02%7C01%7Cfred.shapiro%40yale.edu%7Ceb31743450a74120a70308d7abd0dbb7%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C637166785837431349&sdata=6SvKpg6xBnD0UoD7BLsDPS9fWPBX7VSzaU1%2B6hQ4nzM%3D&reserved=0

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org