[Ads-l] monkey in the middle (1952)

Tue Jan 28 15:28:45 UTC 2020

My saluji experience agrees with Larry's. (Manhattan, ca1956-57).

I never heard of "monkey in the middle."  Nor would I ever describe saluji
as a "sport."

It may be, however, that Stephen's "Sloogie" is the same word, its meaning
either poorly characterized, misunderstood, or otherwise applied.  I do
recall the pronunciation "slooji" as an occasional "saluji" variant.

JL

On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 7:28 AM Barretts Mail <mail.barretts at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Alexander Theroux discusses this word in “Salucci” (
> https://www.jstor.org/stable/43926761 <
> https://www.jstor.org/stable/43926761>). He gives a 1955 citation of
> “siloochee” in “Astounding Science Fiction," beating BP’s earliest citation
> by one year, but not as early as BZ’s 1951 citation.
>
> Theroux cites DARE, saying that “whoever catches the item must shout,
> ’Saloogi on Chris’s knife!’” (p. 206). I imagine this usage might have to
> do with the origin of the word.
>
> FWIW, the surname “Salucci” is given as coming from Latin “sal” (salt) (
> https://www.italyheritage.com/genealogy/surnames/etymology/s/ <
> https://www.italyheritage.com/genealogy/surnames/etymology/s/>), but I
> was not able to find that etymology in a handful of Italian searches.
>
> I also tried a couple of searches in Neapolitan, Sardinian and Sicilian,
> but nothing seemed relevant.
>
> Benjamin Barrett (he/his/him)
> Formerly of Seattle, WA
>
> > On 27 Jan 2020, at 10:44, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
> >
> > The only connection I can think of it that my spellcheck keeps trying to
> turn my “salugi” into Southern Illinois’ “saluki”, but AFAIK the breed in
> question, whatever its merits and elegance, is not known for participating
> in the activity under discussion. Of course, there’s the fact that Walt
> (“Clyde”) Frazier, New York Knickerbocker nonpareil (1970/1973 championship
> pedigree and longtime announcer), was a Saluki.  Can’t be a coincidence,
> but the timing is off for any etymological relevance.
> >
> > LH
> >
> >
> >> On Jan 27, 2020, at 1:38 PM, Margaret Winters <mewinters at WAYNE.EDU>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> If it were played in Southern Illinois (aka Little Egypt), saluki would
> be more probable - and the saluki is the Southern Illinois University
> mascot.  I doubt that as NY kids we'd ever heard of them and our parents,
> immigrants and children of immigrants, even less so.
> >>
> >> ----------------------------
> >> MARGARET E WINTERS
> >> Former Provost
> >> Professor Emerita - French and Linguistics
> >> Wayne State University
> >> Detroit, MI  48202
> >>
> >> mewinters at wayne.edu
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
> Stephen Goranson <goranson at DUKE.EDU>
> >> Sent: Monday, January 27, 2020 1:32 PM
> >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> Subject: Re: monkey in the middle (1952)
> >>
> >> Wild guess: from Saluki hunting dog, alternate spelling Salugi??
> >>
> >> SG
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
> Mark Mandel <markamandel at GMAIL.COM>
> >> Sent: Monday, January 27, 2020 1:25 PM
> >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> Subject: Re: [ADS-L] monkey in the middle (1952)
> >>
> >> My demographics for this are close to Laurence's in space though later
> in
> >> time: Manhattan, Upper West Side, circa 80s-90s (West *n*th Streets, not
> >> decades; those were early sixties for me), including where I lived and
> the
> >> K-12 school I attended, both in the first block from Central Park West.
> >> Also, like Laurence, a group of boys only, with me as the nerdy victim.
> >>
> >> Now that you mention it, Wilson, I do remember the name "Saluggi",
> though
> >> it was a long time till I learned a way to spell it. There are several;
> >> Barry Popik, an indefatigable and reliable investigator of word and
> >> expression histories (as I'm sure you all know), has an article about
> it on
> >> his website at
> >>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.barrypopik.com_index.php_new-5Fyork-5Fcity_entry_salugi-5For-5Fsaloogie&d=DwIFaQ&c=imBPVzF25OnBgGmVOlcsiEgHoG1i6YHLR0Sj_gZ4adc&r=uUVa-8oDL2EzfbuMuowoUadHHcJ7pjul6iFkS5Pd--8&m=Pnx6tgUh5IUlTQKkSQ7Dn8o_2lz49zPGiXI2uHIO9IU&s=Q23hhWARxSAW3601DIaZW_r6ymGn3Um7ahP_XfIioyY&e=
> .
> >>
> >> Saluggi's, I find, is the name of a restaurant/pizzeria in New York
> with a
> >> couple of locations (
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.saluggis.com&d=DwIFaQ&c=imBPVzF25OnBgGmVOlcsiEgHoG1i6YHLR0Sj_gZ4adc&r=uUVa-8oDL2EzfbuMuowoUadHHcJ7pjul6iFkS5Pd--8&m=Pnx6tgUh5IUlTQKkSQ7Dn8o_2lz49zPGiXI2uHIO9IU&s=c7Z_R3WB9EKvOrRPRNl3oeNUuKw1T1trWoLGrJpZz3o&e=
> ), but I haven't seen anything
> >> on their website about the name itself, and the "game" is probably much,
> >> much older than the chain.
> >>
> >> Mark Mandel
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jan 27, 2020, 10:27 AM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>>> On Jan 27, 2020, at 10:24 AM, Margaret Winters <mewinters at WAYNE.EDU>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm pretty sure we didn't have anything called "Saluggi" - but I'm
> >>> remembering about a decade later, Brooklyn instead of Washington
> Heights,
> >>> maybe just for boys…??
> >>>
> >>> Our group was indeed just boys, but I don’t know if there was a crucial
> >>> gender divide. My previous dialectological inquiries (i.e. asking
> random
> >>> people my age who grew up in NYC) do suggest a localized use within
> >>> Manhattan extending to the east side as well as Washington Heights,
> but I
> >>> don’t have enough data points to propose an isogloss.
> >>>>
> >>>> ----------------------------
> >>>> MARGARET E WINTERS
> >>>> Former Provost
> >>>> Professor Emerita - French and Linguistics
> >>>> Wayne State University
> >>>> Detroit, MI  48202
> >>
> >>
> >>> ________________________________
> >>>> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
> >>> Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> >>>> Sent: Monday, January 27, 2020 10:07 AM
> >>>>
> >>>> Hunh.  For me, b. 1945 NYC, growing up in Washington Heights, there
> were
> >>> not two versions of a single game, but two very different “games”. The
> >>> actual game was Monkey-in-the-MIddle (aka Keepaway).  The one where you
> >>> (not me) take something from a younger or vulnerable kid (sometimes
> me),
> >>> perhaps a hat or a baseball glove, and pass it back and forth among
> your
> >>> confederates, was Saluggi.  At least that’s how I’d spell it, given
> what I
> >>> remember about its pronunciation at the time.  So you could say “Let’s
> play
> >>> Monkey-in-the-MIddle/Keepaway, I’ll be it”.  But you could not, in the
> >>> early to mid 1950s, call “Let’s play Saluggi, I’ll be it”.  Barring
> >>> clinical masochism, I suppose, but we didn’t know from that.
> >>>>
> >>>> LH
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Jan 27, 2020, at 7:48 AM, Geoffrey Nathan <geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Like Margaret and Mark I remember the quote game unquote, and not
> with
> >>> fondness. I only remember
> >>>>> the malicious version, and I, being the nerdy kid, was usually the
> >>> victim. Again, early sixties.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Geoff
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Geoffrey S. Nathan
> >>>>>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__blogs.wayne.edu_proftech_&d=DwIFaQ&c=imBPVzF25OnBgGmVOlcsiEgHoG1i6YHLR0Sj_gZ4adc&r=uUVa-8oDL2EzfbuMuowoUadHHcJ7pjul6iFkS5Pd--8&m=Pnx6tgUh5IUlTQKkSQ7Dn8o_2lz49zPGiXI2uHIO9IU&s=B-9VeIAwoXlp6YN7X7eAp64-EqqO0UPVdZovtOKddps&e=
> >>>>> geoffnathan at wayne.edu
> >>>>>
> >>>>> From: Mark Mandel<mailto:markamandel at GMAIL.COM>
> >>>>> Sent: Monday, January 27, 2020 12:52 AM
> >>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU<mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: monkey in the middle (1952)
> >>> ----------------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I do not like the memories this brings up in me.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I knew the expression all too well as a schoolboy in New York in the
> >>> 1960s.
> >>>>> After school some of my classmates would play this "game" (also
> called
> >>>>> "keep-away") with my hat or other possession snatched from me,
> yelling
> >>>>> "Monkey in the middle!" as they threw my property to each other over
> my
> >>>>> head and I ran frantically between them, trying in vain to reach one
> of
> >>>>> them before they could throw it out of my reach.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> MAM
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 6:08 PM Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> The children's game "monkey in the middle" is in OED3 (Sept. 2002
> >>> update)
> >>>>>> from 1980. Here are some cites from New Jersey newspapers in the
> '50s.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ---
> >>>>>>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.newspapers.com_clip_43065809_monkey-5Fin-5Fthe-5Fmiddle_&d=DwIFaQ&c=imBPVzF25OnBgGmVOlcsiEgHoG1i6YHLR0Sj_gZ4adc&r=uUVa-8oDL2EzfbuMuowoUadHHcJ7pjul6iFkS5Pd--8&m=Pnx6tgUh5IUlTQKkSQ7Dn8o_2lz49zPGiXI2uHIO9IU&s=mhm1fApsfUPdxBA1cs67gvEmwRzv0z7EdUN8qH1wwSM&e=
> >>>>>> Belleville (NJ) Times, July 24, 1952, p. 6, col. 6
> >>>>>> Mrs. Virtue, one of our directors, made up some five bean bags, and
> >>> taught
> >>>>>> us the game "monkey in the middle." It sure has had great success
> and
> >>> is
> >>>>>> enjoyed by youngsters of all ages.
> >>>>>> ---
> >>>>>>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.newspapers.com_clip_43065650_monkey-5Fin-5Fthe-5Fmiddle_&d=DwIFaQ&c=imBPVzF25OnBgGmVOlcsiEgHoG1i6YHLR0Sj_gZ4adc&r=uUVa-8oDL2EzfbuMuowoUadHHcJ7pjul6iFkS5Pd--8&m=Pnx6tgUh5IUlTQKkSQ7Dn8o_2lz49zPGiXI2uHIO9IU&s=9ie13wBSizcFPLk8pX7ahP0QsHW4bifxGZE7ttaj2ig&e=
> >>>>>> Verona-Cedar Grove (NJ) Times, July 28, 1955, p. 2, col. 5
> >>>>>> Despite the heat wave the children seemed to have quite an active
> week
> >>> on
> >>>>>> the Forest Avenue playground. Although checkers, kings, Chinese
> >>> checkers.
> >>>>>> Mad Maze, Lucky Shot and horseshoes were the most popular, there
> were
> >>> still
> >>>>>> some badminton, softball, dodge ball, spud and Monkey in the Middle
> >>> games.
> >>>>>> ---
> >>>>>>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.newspapers.com_clip_43053896_monkey-5Fin-5Fthe-5Fmiddle_&d=DwIFaQ&c=imBPVzF25OnBgGmVOlcsiEgHoG1i6YHLR0Sj_gZ4adc&r=uUVa-8oDL2EzfbuMuowoUadHHcJ7pjul6iFkS5Pd--8&m=Pnx6tgUh5IUlTQKkSQ7Dn8o_2lz49zPGiXI2uHIO9IU&s=9KggYCg3iCBBcj3z9j1vbFX90YTU1Uva5oetpmPI9Xk&e=
> >>>>>> Courier-News (Plainfield, NJ), June 11, 1957, p. 25, col. 1
> >>>>>> More than 200 children and their parents participated in the annual
> >>> picnic
> >>>>>> and field day of the Hebrew Institute held Sunday at Green Brook
> >>> Park...
> >>>>>> Awards in games were as follows: Relay -- Jay Cherlow, Jack Ruden,
> >>> Larry
> >>>>>> Sletzinger, Joel Taub, Jonathan Lippman, Mark Hitzig, Marilyn
> Siegel;
> >>> nut
> >>>>>> potato race, Jay Lichtenstein; Monkey in the Middle, Joy Herzog...
> >>> [etc.]
> >>>>>> ---
> >>>>>>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.newspapers.com_clip_43059206_monkey-5Fin-5Fthe-5Fmiddle_&d=DwIFaQ&c=imBPVzF25OnBgGmVOlcsiEgHoG1i6YHLR0Sj_gZ4adc&r=uUVa-8oDL2EzfbuMuowoUadHHcJ7pjul6iFkS5Pd--8&m=Pnx6tgUh5IUlTQKkSQ7Dn8o_2lz49zPGiXI2uHIO9IU&s=Z-eqB1dJHoMa7ogylQBVVZwQn3Vel0wpQjYFIrfhvoI&e=
> >>>>>> The Millburn & Short Hills (NJ) Item, July 11, 1957, p. 6, col. 4
> >>>>>> The middle age group have a variety of games: volley ball, relay
> races
> >>>>>> (which are very exciting), giant steps, monkey in the middle, red
> >>> light,
> >>>>>> red rover, and checkers. The wee ones have two favorite games, which
> >>> they
> >>>>>> play constantly: Simon Says, and Duck, Duck, Goose.
> >>>>>> ---
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --bgz
> >
>
>
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>

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