[Ads-l] weird "which"

Herbert F. Stahlke hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
Wed Jul 8 14:52:45 UTC 2020 

I know it from growing up in small town SE Michigan, and my wife, from a Toledo suburb, is a native whicher.  A recent example:  We were going to have a picnic Saturday, which it rained.  Not even a resumptive.

Herb

On July 8, 2020, at 10:10 AM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu> wrote:

What is the isogloss?  Does anyone know?  It’s not grammatical enough for the Yale Grammatical Diversity Project, but that doesn’t mean I can’t be curious.  I’m sure it’s age-graded as well as regional, but I’d love to see a map.

LH

> On Jul 8, 2020, at 7:25 AM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> 
> Everybody in these parts says / hw /
> 
> Except me.
> 
> JL
> 
> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 12:23 AM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
> wrote:
> 
>>> On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:17 AM, Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> these pun-based titles are almost inevitable
>>> 
>>> Not so much, if you're a speaker of an idiolect that retains voiceless
>> w. I
>>> was amused by the crude attempt of the "Chicago _which_-hunt," till it
>> was
>>> pointed out to me that I may be the last, living native-speaker of
>> English
>>> to pronounce _wh_ as "hw,”
>> 
>> Naah, there ’s a bunch of you.  I’ve been living with one for 43 years.
>> But that wouldn’t *really* prevent you from grokking the puns in question,
>> including the Great Chicago Which Hunt (their parasession volume on
>> relative clauses back in the early ‘70s, for the uninitiated)
>> 
>> 
>>> except in the case of _whoop_, pronounced
>>> "hoop." Cf. cognate German _hupen_, as in the trallic-sign, _NICHT HUPEN_
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Jul 7, 2020 at 9:52 PM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> They can’t all be so interpreted.  A couple of earlier papers on it:
>>>> 
>>>> Rudy Loock. 2007. “Are you a good which or a bad which?"
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> https://www.academia.edu/1436761/Are_you_a_good_which_or_a_bad_which_The_relative_pronoun_as_a_plain_connective
>>>> 
>>>> Burke, Isabelle 2017. "Wicked Which: The Linking Relative in Australian
>>>> English." Australian Journal of Linguistics, 37(3), 356-386.
>>>> https://tinyurl.com/yb95mxyg
>>>> 
>>>> Yes, these pun-based titles are almost inevitable, which we probably
>> could
>>>> have guessed that.
>>>> 
>>>> LH
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jul 7, 2020, at 9:23 PM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Not so weird, because it can be interpreted as a false start.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Unlike the opening line of Bret Harte's "The Heathen Chinee."
>>>>> 
>>>>> I still say mine is the weirdest of whiches.
>>>>> 
>>>>> JL
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Tue, Jul 7, 2020 at 9:15 PM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> I forgot to mention during this thread that Sara Loss at Oklahoma
>> State
>>>>>> presented an excellent paper on this “which” (both resumptive and
>>>>>> non-presumptive) at the most recent ADS annual meeting in New Orleans,
>>>>>> A change in progress: connective “which”
>>>>>> I don’t know if she’s publishing it, but there was a lot of nice
>> Twitter
>>>>>> data she collected for it.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> And here’s an older (well, last-century) example I noticed a while
>> back.
>>>>>> It’s from 1999, even though I hadn’t begin to notice these “which”es
>>>> until
>>>>>> much more recently.   In this weird and wonderful George Saunders
>> story
>>>>>> reprinted in the Dec. 30, 2019 issue,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1999/06/21/i-can-speak
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> there’s this:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Or say your dog comes up and gives Derek a lick? You could make Derek
>>>> say
>>>>>> (if your dog’s name is Queenie), “QUEENIE, GIVE IT A REST!”  Which,
>> you
>>>>>> know what? It makes you love him more. Because suddenly he is
>>>> articulate.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> (Derek is six months old, but equipped with an “I Can SpeakTM” mask
>> that
>>>>>> allows him to speak, sort of.)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> LH
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Jun 23, 2020, at 6:41 PM, Bethan Tovey-Walsh
>> <accounts at BETHAN.WALES
>>>>> 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Ah, okay; I see what you mean. Given what you’ve outlined, if it
>> isn’t
>>>>>> just an accidental omission of a word, perhaps this is a further step
>> in
>>>>>> normalising a kind of “conjunctive which”? It’s absolutely
>> fascinating!
>>>>>> Thanks for the example, and for unpacking how it differs from the
>> type I
>>>>>> cited.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ___________________________________________________
>>>>>>> Dr. Bethan Tovey-Walsh
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Myfyrwraig PhD | PhD Student CorCenCC
>>>>>>> Prifysgol Abertawe | Swansea University
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> CV: LinkedIn
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Croeso i chi ysgrifennu ataf yn y Gymraeg.
>>>>>>> On 23 Jun 2020, 13:35 +0100, Jonathan Lighter <
>> wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
>>>>> ,
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> This seems even weirder to me, Bethan. The examples you give are of
>> a
>>>>>> kind
>>>>>>>> familiar to me from my university teaching days in the late '70s.
>>>>>>>> Whatever the syntactical explanation, both "whiches" can be replaced
>>>> by
>>>>>>>> (and defined as) 'but.' Exx. meaning 'and' are also possible.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> But the current case is not subject to an exclusively lexical
>>>> analysis.
>>>>>>>> The sentence might be normalized in these ways and maybe others:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 1. "Including a full-size leave-in elixir, which nine out of ten
>> women
>>>>>>>> said made their hair appear thicker and fuller in just one week!"
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 2. "Including a full-size leave-in elixir, and nine out of ten women
>>>>>> said
>>>>>>>> it made their hair appear thicker and fuller in just one week!"
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> No. 2 is stylistically awkward but perfectly correct. But to get
>> from
>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>> of these normal constructions to the Viviscal version requires a
>>>>>>>> strange shift in understanding the meaning of "which." In No. 1 the
>>>>>> elixir
>>>>>>>> is the focus; in No. 2 both the elixir and the comments are equally
>> in
>>>>>>>> focus.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> But the Viviscal version seems to focus equally on the elixir and on
>>>> the
>>>>>>>> hair. It feels like something between subordination and conjunction.
>>>>>>>> A simple "and" or "but" won't fix it. And, as I suggested, it's
>>>>>> appearance
>>>>>>>> in a TV commercial is, well, astounding, because it suggests that a
>>>>>> number
>>>>>>>> of copywriters agreed that it sounded just fine.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> JL
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 7:09 AM Bethan Tovey-Walsh
>>>>>> <accounts at bethan.wales>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I've noticed this one a lot online, apparently from U.S.-English
>>>>>> speakers
>>>>>>>>> in particular. I suspect that it's a reanalysis of the standard
>>>>>> "which" as
>>>>>>>>> a relative pronoun into "which" as a conjunction meaning
>>>> approximately
>>>>>> "in
>>>>>>>>> relation to which", "as a result of which", etc.. So instead of
>>>>>>>>> understanding "which" as the object of the main clause, it's
>>>>>> understood as
>>>>>>>>> a conjunction linking a main clause to the preceding noun phrase.
>>>> I've
>>>>>> seen
>>>>>>>>> quite a few examples along the lines of:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> "She told me to go, which I was not going to do that."
>>>>>>>>> "They said they were stealing, which my kids would totally not
>> steal
>>>>>>>>> anything."
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> It seems to me that the step from "[noun phrase], which I wasn't
>>>> going
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> do" to "[noun phrase], which I wasn't going to do that" is a fairly
>>>>>> small
>>>>>>>>> one. I'd be interested to hear your opinions.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> BTW
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> ___________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Dr. Bethan Tovey-Walsh
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Myfyrwraig PhD | PhD Student CorCenCC
>>>>>>>>> Prifysgol Abertawe | Swansea University
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> CV: LinkedIn
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Croeso i chi ysgrifennu ataf yn y Gymraeg.
>>>>>>>>> On 23 Jun 2020, 10:55 +0100, Jonathan Lighter <
>>>> wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
>>>>>>> ,
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Weird to me, anyway, especially in a pricey, presumably carefully
>>>>>> edited
>>>>>>>>> TV
>>>>>>>>>> commercial for a glamour hair product:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> "Including a full-size leave-in elixir which nine out of ten women
>>>>>> said
>>>>>>>>>> their hair appeared thicker and fuller in just one week!"
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> JL
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle
>> the
>>>>>>>>> truth."
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>>>>>> truth."
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>>>> truth."
>>>>> 
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>> 
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> -Wilson
>>> -----
>>> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to
>>> come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>> -Mark Twain
>>> 
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

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