[Ads-l] weird "which"

Wed Jul 8 19:24:47 UTC 2020

I'd love to see actual evidence on it, but I have heard it speculated by people who pay attention to these things that /hw/ has lost ground lexically ... that some people have fewer of these than were there historically, but haven't lost the sound altogether. That could be consistent with this as a spelling pronunciation for some people ... something teachers maybe once focused on?  Decades away from western NC, I still have these across the board. 
Joe

On 7/8/20, 2:14 PM, "American Dialect Society on behalf of JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM" <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU on behalf of JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM> wrote:

I’ve lost various aspects of my native Kentucky dialect since I last lived there decades ago, but I seem to retain /hw/, although the extent of this varies by word.

Do other speakers retain /hw/ for words such as “whale,” for which (at least for me) it is relatively more pronounced?

John Baker

From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> On Behalf Of Laurence Horn
Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 10:27 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: weird "which"

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Thanks, Matt. So not New England, despite the practice of my wife (b. NYC 1944, raised CT). Interesting. I know there’s a complete merger for my students (and children) except for some students from Kentucky and adjacent regions, consistent with the below finding.

LH

> On Jul 8, 2020, at 10:21 AM, Gordon, Matthew J. <GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU<mailto:GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU>> wrote:
>
> It was examined by Labov and colleagues for the Atlas of North American English (published in 2006 with data collected in 1990s). They found the distinction between /hw/ and /w/ scattered across the US with a concentration of distinguishers in the South. Their isogloss goes south from West Virginia to GA and has a narrow band that extends west to Lubbock. Map is on p. 50 if you have ANAE.
>
>
> I believe it's age-graded in their data. Their narrative definitely suggests it's disappearing from use.
>
>
> Matt
>
> ________________________________
> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU<mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>> on behalf of Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU<mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 9:09:44 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU<mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Subject: Re: weird "which"
>
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>
> What is the isogloss? Does anyone know? It’s not grammatical enough for the Yale Grammatical Diversity Project, but that doesn’t mean I can’t be curious. I’m sure it’s age-graded as well as regional, but I’d love to see a map.
>
> LH
>
>> On Jul 8, 2020, at 7:25 AM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM<mailto:wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>> wrote:
>>
>> Everybody in these parts says / hw /
>>
>> Except me.
>>
>> JL
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 12:23 AM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu<mailto:laurence.horn at yale.edu>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:17 AM, Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM<mailto:hwgray at GMAIL.COM>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> these pun-based titles are almost inevitable
>>>>
>>>> Not so much, if you're a speaker of an idiolect that retains voiceless
>>> w. I
>>>> was amused by the crude attempt of the "Chicago _which_-hunt," till it
>>> was
>>>> pointed out to me that I may be the last, living native-speaker of
>>> English
>>>> to pronounce _wh_ as "hw,”
>>>
>>> Naah, there ’s a bunch of you. I’ve been living with one for 43 years.
>>> But that wouldn’t *really* prevent you from grokking the puns in question,
>>> including the Great Chicago Which Hunt (their parasession volume on
>>> relative clauses back in the early ‘70s, for the uninitiated)
>>>
>>>
>>>> except in the case of _whoop_, pronounced
>>>> "hoop." Cf. cognate German _hupen_, as in the trallic-sign, _NICHT HUPEN_
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jul 7, 2020 at 9:52 PM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu<mailto:laurence.horn at yale.edu>>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> They can’t all be so interpreted. A couple of earlier papers on it:
>>>>>
>>>>> Rudy Loock. 2007. “Are you a good which or a bad which?"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> https://www.academia.edu/1436761/Are_you_a_good_which_or_a_bad_which_The_relative_pronoun_as_a_plain_connective<https://www.academia.edu/1436761/Are_you_a_good_which_or_a_bad_which_The_relative_pronoun_as_a_plain_connective>
>>>>>
>>>>> Burke, Isabelle 2017. "Wicked Which: The Linking Relative in Australian
>>>>> English." Australian Journal of Linguistics, 37(3), 356-386.
>>>>> https://tinyurl.com/yb95mxyg<https://tinyurl.com/yb95mxyg>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, these pun-based titles are almost inevitable, which we probably
>>> could
>>>>> have guessed that.
>>>>>
>>>>> LH
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jul 7, 2020, at 9:23 PM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM<mailto:wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not so weird, because it can be interpreted as a false start.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unlike the opening line of Bret Harte's "The Heathen Chinee."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I still say mine is the weirdest of whiches.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> JL
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 7, 2020 at 9:15 PM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu<mailto:laurence.horn at yale.edu>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I forgot to mention during this thread that Sara Loss at Oklahoma
>>> State
>>>>>>> presented an excellent paper on this “which” (both resumptive and
>>>>>>> non-presumptive) at the most recent ADS annual meeting in New Orleans,
>>>>>>> A change in progress: connective “which”
>>>>>>> I don’t know if she’s publishing it, but there was a lot of nice
>>> Twitter
>>>>>>> data she collected for it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And here’s an older (well, last-century) example I noticed a while
>>> back.
>>>>>>> It’s from 1999, even though I hadn’t begin to notice these “which”es
>>>>> until
>>>>>>> much more recently. In this weird and wonderful George Saunders
>>> story
>>>>>>> reprinted in the Dec. 30, 2019 issue,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1999/06/21/i-can-speak<https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1999/06/21/i-can-speak>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> there’s this:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or say your dog comes up and gives Derek a lick? You could make Derek
>>>>> say
>>>>>>> (if your dog’s name is Queenie), “QUEENIE, GIVE IT A REST!” Which,
>>> you
>>>>>>> know what? It makes you love him more. Because suddenly he is
>>>>> articulate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (Derek is six months old, but equipped with an “I Can SpeakTM” mask
>>> that
>>>>>>> allows him to speak, sort of.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> LH
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jun 23, 2020, at 6:41 PM, Bethan Tovey-Walsh
>>> <accounts at BETHAN.WALES
<mailto:accounts at BETHAN.WALES%0b>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ah, okay; I see what you mean. Given what you’ve outlined, if it
>>> isn’t
>>>>>>> just an accidental omission of a word, perhaps this is a further step
>>> in
>>>>>>> normalising a kind of “conjunctive which”? It’s absolutely
>>> fascinating!
>>>>>>> Thanks for the example, and for unpacking how it differs from the
>>> type I
>>>>>>> cited.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ___________________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Dr. Bethan Tovey-Walsh
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Myfyrwraig PhD | PhD Student CorCenCC
>>>>>>>> Prifysgol Abertawe | Swansea University
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> CV: LinkedIn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Croeso i chi ysgrifennu ataf yn y Gymraeg.
>>>>>>>> On 23 Jun 2020, 13:35 +0100, Jonathan Lighter <
>>> wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM<mailto:wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>>> ,
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> This seems even weirder to me, Bethan. The examples you give are of
>>> a
>>>>>>> kind
>>>>>>>>> familiar to me from my university teaching days in the late '70s.
>>>>>>>>> Whatever the syntactical explanation, both "whiches" can be replaced
>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>> (and defined as) 'but.' Exx. meaning 'and' are also possible.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But the current case is not subject to an exclusively lexical
>>>>> analysis.
>>>>>>>>> The sentence might be normalized in these ways and maybe others:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1. "Including a full-size leave-in elixir, which nine out of ten
>>> women
>>>>>>>>> said made their hair appear thicker and fuller in just one week!"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2. "Including a full-size leave-in elixir, and nine out of ten women
>>>>>>> said
>>>>>>>>> it made their hair appear thicker and fuller in just one week!"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No. 2 is stylistically awkward but perfectly correct. But to get
>>> from
>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>> of these normal constructions to the Viviscal version requires a
>>>>>>>>> strange shift in understanding the meaning of "which." In No. 1 the
>>>>>>> elixir
>>>>>>>>> is the focus; in No. 2 both the elixir and the comments are equally
>>> in
>>>>>>>>> focus.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But the Viviscal version seems to focus equally on the elixir and on
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> hair. It feels like something between subordination and conjunction.
>>>>>>>>> A simple "and" or "but" won't fix it. And, as I suggested, it's
>>>>>>> appearance
>>>>>>>>> in a TV commercial is, well, astounding, because it suggests that a
>>>>>>> number
>>>>>>>>> of copywriters agreed that it sounded just fine.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> JL
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 7:09 AM Bethan Tovey-Walsh
>>>>>>> <accounts at bethan.wales<mailto:accounts at bethan.wales>>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I've noticed this one a lot online, apparently from U.S.-English
>>>>>>> speakers
>>>>>>>>>> in particular. I suspect that it's a reanalysis of the standard
>>>>>>> "which" as
>>>>>>>>>> a relative pronoun into "which" as a conjunction meaning
>>>>> approximately
>>>>>>> "in
>>>>>>>>>> relation to which", "as a result of which", etc.. So instead of
>>>>>>>>>> understanding "which" as the object of the main clause, it's
>>>>>>> understood as
>>>>>>>>>> a conjunction linking a main clause to the preceding noun phrase.
>>>>> I've
>>>>>>> seen
>>>>>>>>>> quite a few examples along the lines of:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "She told me to go, which I was not going to do that."
>>>>>>>>>> "They said they were stealing, which my kids would totally not
>>> steal
>>>>>>>>>> anything."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me that the step from "[noun phrase], which I wasn't
>>>>> going
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> do" to "[noun phrase], which I wasn't going to do that" is a fairly
>>>>>>> small
>>>>>>>>>> one. I'd be interested to hear your opinions.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> BTW
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ___________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Dr. Bethan Tovey-Walsh
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Myfyrwraig PhD | PhD Student CorCenCC
>>>>>>>>>> Prifysgol Abertawe | Swansea University
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> CV: LinkedIn
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Croeso i chi ysgrifennu ataf yn y Gymraeg.
>>>>>>>>>> On 23 Jun 2020, 10:55 +0100, Jonathan Lighter <
>>>>> wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM<mailto:wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>>>>> ,
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Weird to me, anyway, especially in a pricey, presumably carefully
>>>>>>> edited
>>>>>>>>>> TV
>>>>>>>>>>> commercial for a glamour hair product:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Including a full-size leave-in elixir which nine out of ten women
>>>>>>> said
>>>>>>>>>>> their hair appeared thicker and fuller in just one week!"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> JL
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle
>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> truth."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org<http://www.americandialect.org>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org<http://www.americandialect.org>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>>>>>>> truth."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org<http://www.americandialect.org>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org<http://www.americandialect.org>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org<http://www.americandialect.org>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>>>>> truth."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org<http://www.americandialect.org>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org<http://www.americandialect.org>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> -Wilson
>>>> -----
>>>> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to
>>>> come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>> -Mark Twain
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org<http://www.americandialect.org>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org<http://www.americandialect.org>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org<http://www.americandialect.org>
>
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