[Ads-l] You fish on your side trope (was: Re: Snasu (variant), was Re: Antedating of "Snafu" by Barry Popik)

Amy West medievalist at W-STS.COM
Mon Nov 30 13:36:28 UTC 2020 

Eeeyup. I was going to mention this. It's nearby Webster Lake in 
Webster, MA.

The Wikipedia entry on the history of the name is pretty good:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Chaubunagungamaug

---Amy West


On 11/25/20 00:00, ADS-L automatic digest system wrote:
> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 18:48:53 -0500 From: Jonathan Lighter 
> <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM> Subject: Re: Snasu (variant), was Re: 
> Antedating of "Snafu" by Barry Popik Ripley's Believe It or Not!! 
> spoke ca1959 of Lake 
> Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg in darkest 
> Massachusetts. It supposedly translates as "You fish on your side, I 
> fish on my side, no one fishes in the middle." Coincidence? JL On Tue, 
> Nov 24, 2020 at 6:33 PM George Thompson <george.thompson at nyu.edu> wrote:
>> JL's message of 5:20 included a link to a list of strange scientific
>> species names, including:
>> *Myzocallis kahawaluokalani*  Kirkaldy, 1907 (an aphid; in Hawaiian, the
>> name supposedly means "you fish on your side of the lagoon and I'll fish on
>> the other, and no one will fish in the middle")
>>
>> I have seen that derivation offered for the name of Lake Memphremagog in
>> northern Vermont.  Wikipedia explains the name thus:
>> Memphremagog was also pronounced as "Mamphremagog". This came from the
>> Abenakis'<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abenaki_people>  *Mamlawbagak*
>> which
>> signifies "a long and large sheet of water". The prefix*mamlaw*  denotes
>> largeness or abundance; the particule*baga*  denotes water; and "k" marks
>> the name as given in local term.
>>
>> I have no idea where I saw this.
>>
>> GAT
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 5:20 PM Jonathan Lighter<wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Perhaps of interest, from 2006. Check the archives for some context:
>>>
>>>
>>>> "CYA" and "FTA" are not only genuine, they're very well documented.
>>> Also familiar to HDAS are BOHICA, BUFF, (FT) EUSTIS, DILLIGAF, FIDO,
>> FIGMO,
>>> FNG, FUBAR, HMFIC, I&I, MRE, OMGIF, PFC, SNAFU, SWAG, TARFU, USMC ("Uncle
>>> Sam's Misguided Children"). Some of these go back to WWII.
>>>
>>>> Still others that come to mind are DILLIGAS ("...a shit"), WTF?, USMC
>>> ("Uncle Sam's Moldy Crotch"), FUJIGMO ("Fuck you, Jack, I Got My
>> Orders"),
>>> FUBIS ("...Buddy, I'm Shipping"), TARFUBAR, SUSFU ("Situation Unchanged,
>>> Still...").
>>>
>>>> There's a chigger whose scientific monicker is_Tribicula fujigmo_.  For
>>> details, as well as other bizarre Linnaean names (including the fly
>>> _Phthiria relativitae_), see [
>>>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.faculty.ucr.edu_-7Eheraty_menke.html&d=DwIFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=v2Wtu7DQZxSBMSJv-oEMNg&m=OdadWhMvHQPYUJNwmzLJiMyK0fUAxFjkgRQa0m96Elc&s=STMhEdXZdEWWmsDUhg8GMAjw5b1uX3K9lm8tRfumRm4&e=
>>> ].<
>>>
>>> I omitted "DILLIGAF."
>>>
>>> American Notes & Queries also has a "SNAFU" from 1941.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> JL
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 4:57 PM ADSGarson O'Toole <
>>> adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks Stephen. I agree that the "snasu" variant is interesting. Many
>>>> thanks, Ben, for locating my message about "snasu" from the
>>>> antediluvian age.
>>>>
>>>> I just located an interesting instance of "S N A F U" in March 1940.
>>>> Unfortunately, this "S N A F U" might be illusory. See the following
>>>> description.
>>>>
>>>> Date: March 12, 1940
>>>> Newspaper: Detroit Evening Times
>>>> Newspaper Location: Detroit, Michigan
>>>> Section: Detroit Times Daily Magazine Page
>>>> Article: Wishing Well (puzzle)
>>>> Quote Page 12, Column 5
>>>> Database: Newspapers.com
>>>> Database: British Newspaper Archive
>>>> Database: GenealogyBank
>>>>
>>>> [Begin excerpt]
>>>> WISHING WELL
>>>>
>>>> 4 3 6 5 8 2 4 6 7 3 5 8 4
>>>> B A S N A F U U R C E C Y
>>>>
>>>> 2 6 7 3 8 4 6 5 8 7 2 4 6
>>>> L C E O T T C W O U A H E
>>>>
>>>> 4 3 6 5 7 8 4 2 6 8 3 5 6
>>>> E M S I N N U T S I P N I
>>>> [End excerpt]
>>>>
>>>> Above are the top six rows from a puzzle with 14 rows. The puzzle
>>>> contains the following contiguous sequence of five letters "S N A F
>>>> U". The puzzle also contains the following sequence "N U T S".
>>>>
>>>> It is possible that a mischievous puzzle constructor deliberately
>>>> inserted "S N A F U" and "N U T S". However, the solution to the
>>>> puzzle is unrelated to these sequences, so I guess we have to assume
>>>> that these sequences were simply coincidental.
>>>>
>>>> I also came across another variant acronym "Susfu" with a June 1942
>>>> citation. The meaning is not explained in this citation, but I found
>>>> another instance that decoded the first two letters as "Situation
>>>> unchanged"; hence, "Situation unchanged still fouled up".
>>>>
>>>> Date: June 25, 1942
>>>> Newspaper: The Jersey Journal
>>>> Newspaper Location: Jersey City, New Jersey
>>>> Article: Signal Corps Work Vital in Modern War
>>>> Author: Martin Gately (Staff Reporter)
>>>> Quote Page 2, Column 5
>>>> Database: Newspapers.com
>>>> Database: GenealogyBank
>>>>
>>>> [Begin excerpt]
>>>> The newsmen, accompanied by officers, were taken through the Signal
>>>> Corps Technical Schools, where, among other things, they were
>>>> initiated into the meaning of such phrases as "Snafu" and "Susfu."
>>>> Among the schools visited was the code building where the men who
>>>> tapped out the last messages from Bataan were taught.
>>>> [End excerpt]
>>>>
>>>> Garson
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 12:46 PM Ben Zimmer<bgzimmer at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>> Back in 2009, Garson O'Toole found the "snasu" variant in Time
>>> magazine,
>>>>> Aug. 18, 1941.
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__listserv.linguistlist.org_pipermail_ads-2Dl_2009-2DDecember_094658.html&d=DwIFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=v2Wtu7DQZxSBMSJv-oEMNg&m=OdadWhMvHQPYUJNwmzLJiMyK0fUAxFjkgRQa0m96Elc&s=YpTLhKfZXByzYScf_kreanYNCN1Qpt7SrRlcKwlsY9E&e=
>>>>> Citation: 1941 Aug. 18, National Defense: Problem of Morale, Time
>>>> magazine.
>>>>> Another outfit used another word as response to almost any question:
>>>> Snasu
>>>>> ("Situation normal: all screwed up"). For the low state of Army
>> morale
>>>> was
>>>>> merely brought into the open by the draft-extension bill.
>>>>>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.time.com_time_magazine_article_0-2C9171-2C802126-2C00.html&d=DwIFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=v2Wtu7DQZxSBMSJv-oEMNg&m=OdadWhMvHQPYUJNwmzLJiMyK0fUAxFjkgRQa0m96Elc&s=CF_5pYqw85klgUwi83ERWeP3uMlSzyE5dswjK9Q9Las&e=
>>>>> ---
>>>>>
>>>>> As for the 1941 Google Books hit for "snafu," I assume that's the
>>>>> appearance in the Sept. '41 issue of American Notes and Queries, as
>>> given
>>>>> in OED2.
>>>>>
>>>>> --bgz
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 5:34 AM Stephen Goranson<goranson at duke.edu>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Oct. 26 , 1941, Charlotte Observer [NC; AmHistN; "...Army
>> Lingo..."]
>>>> 48/4
>>>>>> Snasu: an expression of disgust when things go wrong. Literally
>>>> "Situation
>>>>>> normal, all screwed up."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [GB gives snafu also as 1941, but not confirmed.]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stephen Goranson
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>> From: American Dialect Society<ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>  on behalf
>> of
>>>>>> Shapiro, Fred<fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 11:07 AM
>>>>>> To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU  <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>>> Subject: Antedating of "Snafu" by Barry Popik
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I cannot overstate the riches that are contained in Barry Popik's
>>>>>> wonderful website barrypopik.com.  Here is an antedating he has
>> for
>>>>>> "snafu."  This is a slight antedating in terms of chronology, but I
>>>> think
>>>>>> it is worth highlighting because "snafu" is such an important term.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> snafu (OED 1941 [Sept.])
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 5 June 1941, Daily Times (Chicago, IL), pg. 10, col. 2:
>>>>>> Army’s all snafu
>>>>>> Snakes, bugs halt ‘battle march
>>>>>> By KEITH WHEELER
>>>>>> (TIMES Staff Correspondent)
>>>>>> Bell Buckle, Tenn., June 5.—“Everything, said 1st. Lieut. Robert G.
>>>>>> Anderson, executive officer of company G. 2d battalion, (New York)
>>>>>> infantry, 27th division “is turning out snafu.”
>>>>>> (...)
>>>>>> What,” The Times asked, “does snafu means?”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fred Shapiro
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> The American Dialect Society -
>>>>>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.americandialect.org__;!!OToaGQ!-feEW1lf938FnmHL-YGr2C-YgVUo-6Ka9zOlOKET8UlGkInnBpD7aDqL9AQlTDWO$
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> The American Dialect Society -
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=DwIFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=v2Wtu7DQZxSBMSJv-oEMNg&m=OdadWhMvHQPYUJNwmzLJiMyK0fUAxFjkgRQa0m96Elc&s=X7fZvRqo_j_bYJClarZ3TZ8dlE2vPlM0hSF1DD0sE5U&e=
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> The American Dialect Society -
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=DwIFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=v2Wtu7DQZxSBMSJv-oEMNg&m=OdadWhMvHQPYUJNwmzLJiMyK0fUAxFjkgRQa0m96Elc&s=X7fZvRqo_j_bYJClarZ3TZ8dlE2vPlM0hSF1DD0sE5U&e=
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> The American Dialect Society -
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=DwIFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=v2Wtu7DQZxSBMSJv-oEMNg&m=OdadWhMvHQPYUJNwmzLJiMyK0fUAxFjkgRQa0m96Elc&s=X7fZvRqo_j_bYJClarZ3TZ8dlE2vPlM0hSF1DD0sE5U&e=
>>> --
>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>> truth."
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The American Dialect Society -
>>>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=DwIFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=v2Wtu7DQZxSBMSJv-oEMNg&m=OdadWhMvHQPYUJNwmzLJiMyK0fUAxFjkgRQa0m96Elc&s=X7fZvRqo_j_bYJClarZ3TZ8dlE2vPlM0hSF1DD0sE5U&e=
>> --
>> George A. Thompson
>> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
>> Univ. Pr., 1998.
>>
>> But when aroused at the Trump of Doom / Ye shall start, bold kings, from
>> your lowly tomb. . .
>> L. H. Sigourney, "Burial of Mazeen", Poems.  Boston, 1827, p. 112
>>
>> The Trump of Doom -- also known as The Dunghill Toadstool.  (Here's a
>> picture of his great-grandfather.)
>>
>> http://www.parliament.uk/worksofart/artwork/james-gillray/an-excrescence---a-fungus-alias-a-toadstool-upon-a-dunghill/3851
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society -http://www.americandialect.org
>>
> -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the 
> truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org



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