[Ads-l] odd sequence of tenses

Tue Oct 12 16:04:35 UTC 2021

> On Oct 12, 2021, at 9:07 AM, dave at wilton.net <dave at WILTON.NET> wrote:
> 
> 
> I don't see anything odd at all, it's just the natural sequence of tenses. The superordinate verb is in the historical present, so the time frame of the entire sentence is the present. The lack of a pandemic in the subordinate clause would then normally be expressed in past perfect, as it is a "completed" action. (The fact that it didn't happen is over and done with.)
> 
> "If there had not been a coronavirus in 2020, Trump probably won that election" seems odd to me, especially coming from Axelrod. Ending on "probably won" gives the impression that Axelrod thinks Trump should be president, which is clearly not the case. That's not literally what the sentence says, but ending on that note gives that impression especially when so many nutters are actually claiming he won.
> 
> Removing the political considerations:
> 
> "If the quarterback had not fumbled, the Jets probably won the game.” 

The sports context is very much relevant to these. It’s not a simple narrative present because of the counterfactual nature.  I vaguely recall having participated in an earlier thread on these, or a variant in which *both* clauses are in the present, there’s counterfactual force, and the speaker/writer is likely a sports commentator (or player).  I call these SCFHP:  Sports Counterfactual Historical Present.  Kai von Fintel also discusses them and reports on an exchange in a 2004 entry in his blog: https://www.kaivonfintel.org/present-indicative-counterfactuals/ 

One of my favorite examples, from a NYT Dave Anderson column on the celebrated ex-Patriot kicker Adam Vinatieri, https://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/27/sports/sports-of-the-times-with-vinatieri-colts-may-have-the-edge.html

His even more important field goal was the 45-yarder in the snow that forced overtime against the Raiders in the playoffs after the 2001 season. “I think that’s the best kick I have ever seen.”  Belichick said in saluting Vinatieri for having broken Gino Cappelletti’s franchise record for points in a Dec. 4 game last season against the Jets. “Because of the conditions and because of what was at stake on that kick. I mean, that is the game. If he doesn’t make that kick, it is over. We don’t win that game without that kick. So that wasn’t the win, that was the tie, so it is over.”

If Vinatieri doesn’t make that kick in the snow, that Patriots team doesn’t go on to win the Super Bowl at the Louisiana Superdome on Vinatieri’s 48-yarder against the Rams as time expired.

Other examples from my collection; note that the first of these was posted on this list a quarter-century ago:

After a spectacular catch by David Justice that prevents the winning run from coming in,  the announcer says, “If Justice doesn't catch that it's a double and the go-ahead run is in.” 

(posted by Bill Smith to ADS-L, 12 Oct. 1995, on World Series game)

“If the shortstop doesn’t boot the easy double-play ball, nobody’s talking about the fan who interfered with Alou catching the foul ball.” 
(TV announcer after inning that cost Cubs 2003 pennant; note actual present counterfactual in apodosis)

“If the ball [ground-rule double hit by Yankees’ Tony Clark] doesn’t bounce into the stands, the run scores and the game ends an hour and a half ago.”

(Fox TV analyst Tim McCarver over replay of crucial event in 9th inning of Game 5 that may have been the turning point in the 2004 ACLS comeback win by Red Sox over Yankees; note ago)

"If he (Green) doesn't throw that cup, Artest doesn't go up into the stands.”

(Oakland County Prosecutor David Gorcyca, on filing charges for Nov. 19 brawl, including two counts of assault and battery filed against John Green; from ABC World News Tonight, 12/8/04; cf. “If Artest doesn’t go in(to) the stands […there is no riot]”:  72 google hits)

 non-overt conditional with tense shift:

from Avery Johnson, former guard and now assistant coach of the NBA Dallas Mavericks:

“Last year, we don't win this game,” Johnson said.     (post-game TV news conf., 5/19/03)

===============

The example we’ve been discussing is different because of the past tense in the antecedent, but it shares the property of having a counterfactual present in the consequent. The SCFHP version would be “If there isn’t a coronovirus in 2020, Trump probably wins that election”.  

LH

> 
> Yep, that seems weird to me. "Win" is what I would say.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Jonathan Lighter" <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2021 7:09pm
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [ADS-L] odd sequence of tenses
> 
> 
> 
> Superficially, but it's substituting for a conditional "would have," not a
> past "won."
> 
> JL
> 
> On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 6:21 PM Barretts Mail <mail.barretts at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> Isn’t that just the narrative present?
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_present <
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_present>
>> 
>> Benjamin Barrett (he/his/him)
>> Formerly of Seattle, WA
>> 
>>> On 11 Oct 2021, at 05:40, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> David Axelrod, former Obama official, on CNN:
>>> 
>>> "If there had not been a coronavirus in 2020, Trump probably wins that
>>> election."
>>> 
>>> Note the formality of "had not" before the weirdness sets in.
>>> 
>>> JL
>> 
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> 
> 
> -- 
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
> 
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