[Ads-l] between a rock and a hard place (1914)

[ADSGarson O'Toole]

Here is a different match for the Gov. Harris story. The phrasing is
slightly different. Now the phrase "for and against" makes sense
although it is a bit awkward. This story, and the target phrase, also
appeared in other newspapers.

Please double check details before using any of these citations.

Date: August 13, 1915
Newspaper: The Columbia Record
Newspaper Location: Columbia, South Carolina
Article: They're Fussing Over In Jaw-Jaw
Author: (Special to The Record)
Quote Page 8, Column 3
Database: Newspapers.com
https://www.newspapers.com/image/744542533/

[Begin excerpt]
(Special to The Record)
Atlanta, Aug. 13.—Gov. Nat E. Harris must be finding himself today
"between a hard place and a rock" if all the "pressure" that is being
talked about is really being brought to bear on him for and against
the inclusion of prohibition in the extra session call.
[End excerpt]

Below is an instance in Florida in 1915.

Date: August 18, 1915
Newspaper: Miami Daily Metropolis
Newspaper Location: Miami, Florida
Article: Public Pulse
Author: Letter to the editor from A. E. Van Velsan
Quote Page 2, Column 1
Database: Newspapers.com
https://www.newspapers.com/image/298703823/

[Begin excerpt]
He is between a hard place and a rock and in order to protect him from
any further damage it Is incumbent upon the city council to take some
action in this matter.
[End excerpt]

Here is an instance in Alaska in 1916.

Date: December 05, 1916
Newspaper: Alaska Daily Empire
Newspaper Location:
Article: (One panel comic titled "Fuller Bull Says")
Quote Page 4, Column 3
Database: GenealogyBank

[Begin excerpt]
(One-panel comic title)
Fuller Bull Says:
(Dialog between two men in comic)
COME ON WITH US!
NO! GUESS I'LL GO HOME!
(Caption of comic)
A HENPECK with no place to go but home is between a hard place and a rock.
[End excerpt]

Garson O'Toole

On Sat, Oct 30, 2021 at 4:02 AM ADSGarson O'Toole
<adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Great work, Ben.
> Here is a match in a newspaper article with an Atlanta, Georgia
> dateline in 1915. The phrase was placed between quotation marks, and
> the two key elements were permuted.
>
> Date: August 13, 1915
> Newspaper: Americus Times-Recorder (City Edition)
> Newspaper Location: Americus, Georgia
> Article: Governor Harris Has Puzzling Issue Presented To Him
> Quote Page 1, Column 5
> Database: GenealogyBank
>
> [Begin excerpt]
> (Special to Times-Recorder)
> ATLANTA, Ga., Aug. 13.—Governor Nat E. Harris must be finding himself
> today "between a hard place and a rock" if all the "pressure" that is
> being talked about is really being brought to bear on him for and
> opposing the inclusion of prohibition in the extra session call.
> [End excerpt]
>
> The inclusion of the word "and" might be a newspaper error.
>
> Garson
>
> On Sat, Oct 30, 2021 at 2:35 AM Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > OED3's earliest cite for the idiom "between a rock and a hard place" comes
> > from a 1921 issue of Dialect Notes, which defined it as "to be bankrupt.
> > Common in Arizona in recent panics; sporadic in California." The Phrase
> > Finder site speculates that it originated in a 1917 dispute between copper
> > mining companies and mineworkers in Bisbee, Arizona:
> >
> > https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place.html
> >
> > On the English Language & Usage Stack Exchange, KarlG finds that theory
> > implausible, noting that the expression was used by an American soldier
> > writing home from Europe in 1918:
> >
> > https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/32785/expression-caught-between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place
> >
> > The soldier's letter (dated Nov. 9, 1918 from "somewhere in France") was
> > published in a New Mexico newspaper:
> >
> > ---
> > https://www.newspapers.com/clip/88021911/between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place/
> > Mountainair (New Mex.) Independent, Dec 19, 1918, p. 8, col. 2
> > Seeing from the papers, that we have the Central Power bunch between a rock
> > and a hard place, I am afraid that the hard place will get harder than the
> > rock if Fritz don’t wake up and get out while he is yet breathing.
> > ---
> >
> > But it's possible to find it in use even earlier than that, as in this 1914
> > item:
> >
> > ---
> > https://www.newspapers.com/clip/88021863/between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place/
> > Poteau (Okla.) Weekly Sun, Oct 1, 1914, p. 5, col. 1
> > As an example of fine distinctions, a party of men were discussing the
> > present situation of the German army this week. One remarked that the
> > Germans were between the devil and the deep sea; while another corrected
> > him by saying that the Germans were between the upper and nether stone. The
> > third man whose name is Pillgreen and who works in the treasurer’s office
> > simply remarked that the Germans were between a rock and a hard place.
> > Here’s hoping that all three versions are in the main correct, so as to end
> > the war.
> > ---
> >
> > It's interesting that both the 1914 and 1918 examples relate to the
> > fortunes of Germany and the Central Powers in World War I.
> >
> > --bgz
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

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The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org