[Ads-l] Antedating of "Torch Song," "Carry the Torch"

Jonathan Lighter wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
Mon Sep 27 11:50:59 UTC 2021

John, I've never heard of "torch" in the claimed sense of "beloved."

But cf. "flame."

My interpretation was always that the carrier is searching everywhere, even
in the middle of the night, for the elusive beloved.

The world's most famous torch-carrier was, of course, the Statue of Liberty.


On Sun, Sep 26, 2021 at 10:56 PM Peter Reitan <pjreitan at hotmail.com> wrote:

> These links might help, from 1928.
> "Carrying a torch" is to have a broken heart, or to bemoan the lack of
> feminine co mpany.
> https://lantern.mediahist.org/catalog/photoplayvolume33435chic_0054
> https://archive.org/details/photoplayvolume33435chic/page/n54/mode/1up?view=theater
> ________________________________
> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
> Baker, John <JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM>
> Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2021 5:33:11 PM
> Subject: Re: Antedating of "Torch Song," "Carry the Torch"
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Baker, John" <JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Antedating of "Torch Song," "Carry the Torch"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Thinking about this further, I'm still curious about the word "torch" in
> bo=
> th "torch song" and "carry a torch."  Damon Runyon's column, based
> primaril=
> y on a letter from the singer Tommy Lyman, asserts that both terms are
> base=
> d on the word "torch," which in the "Roaring Forties" came to mean the
> obje=
> ct of one's affections.  Is there any other evidence that "torch" ever had
> =
> that meaning?  Even if it did, "carry a torch" seems to refer to the
> frustr=
> ated lover, not the object of the lover's affections.  Green's Dictionary
> o=
> f Slang suggests that "the 'light of love' is still burning, even if it is
> =
> unreciprocated."  I suppose that makes more sense, but it isn't clear what
> =
> evidence there may be for this analysis.
> It turns out to be really hard to search for "carry a torch."  There is a
> f=
> ar greater number of literal examples of torch-carrying than I would have
> s=
> upposed.  "Carry a torch" was indeed included in the lyrics of the song
> tha=
> t Runyan said Lyman wrote, known as When You Carry the Torch and various
> ot=
> her names.  The lyrics include the lines "Ev'ry tear seems to scorch, When
> =
> you carry the torch And the gang's gone home," according to the website
> quo=
> ted below.  However, I don't know how early the full lyrics can be
> confirme=
> d, and in any case it seems to be unresolved whether Lyman created both
> ter=
> ms, or named "torch song" after an existing phrase.
> I suppose that "Roaring Forties" is a mistake for "Roaring Twenties,"  the
> =
> decade of the 1920s.  "Roaring forties" is the original term, but refers
> to=
>  stormy areas of the ocean between 40 and 50 degrees north latitude.
> Here is the discussion of When You Carry the Torch, from the website
> linked=
>  in my previous email, including the lyrics:
> "The song is called variously:
> The Torch That Didn't Go Out
> The Kansas City Torch
> The Torch of Kansas City
> When You Carry The Torch
> and was, allegedly, taught to Turk Murphy by Patsy Patton (cabaret
> singer and wife of banjo player Pat Patton. We know him from when he
> came to Sydney on the Matson Line ships). The first 'jazz' version was
> reco=
> rded by Turk Murphy for a Columbia LP on 19 Jan. 1953. The notes by George
> =
> Avakian to that 'Barrelhouse Jazz' LP says that Turk came to it from the
> Ca=
> stle Jazz Band (who recorded it later in Aug 1957) via Don Kinch and Bob
> Sh=
> ort, ex Castle band members).
> It was composed (music and lyrics) in 1928 by the great Harry Warren
> (we all know him) using the name Harry Herschel and originally
> published by Robbins Music Corp.
> [Verse]:When the gang has turned you down,
> And you wander 'round the town,
> Longing for someone in sympathy.
> As you go from place to place,
> Looking for some friendly face,
> You can hear the old town clock strike three;
> Then you wish you had your old gal back again.
> You're lonesome, oh, so lonesome,
> And your poor hear cries in vain:
> [Chorus]:
> Oh, gee, but it's tough,
> When the gang's gone home;
> Out on the corner,
> You stand alone;
> You feel so blue
> With nothing to do;
> You're cravin' someone's company.
> The gang leaves you there
> With an old time stall,
> While you go home and gaze
> At the four bare walls.
> Ev'ry tear seems to scorch,
> When you carry the torch
> And the gang's gone home.
> [2nd Verse]:
> When you haven't got a friend,
> And your worries never end,
> When the future doesn't look so bright.
> As you sit there in the gloom
> Of an empty silent room,
> As the hallway clock ticks through the night,
> Then you long to hear a knock upon your door.
> You're weary, oh, so dreary,
> And your poor heart cries once more:
> [Chorus]"
> John Baker
> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> On Behalf Of
> Baker,=
>  John
> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2021 6:49 PM
> Subject: Antedating of "Torch Song," "Carry the Torch"
> A torch song is a song of unrequited love, especially of longing for a
> form=
> er lover, and is thought to derive from the phrase "to carry a torch" (for
> =
> someone). The OED's earliest citations for both terms are from 1927, and
> th=
> e citation for the former says that the term "torch song" is said to have
> b=
> een created by Tommy Lyman in reference to his song "Come To Me, My
> Melanch=
> oly Baby." Here is an earlier example from 1926, in a column by Damon
> Runyo=
> n. Monroe (La.) News-Star (Oct. 29, 1926) (NewspaperArchive). The column
> ag=
> rees in giving credit to Lyman for "torch song" and also addresses "to
> carr=
> y a torch."
> <<I have a letter from Mr. Tommy Lyman, who is over in that dear Paree . .
> =
> . .
> All persons on Manhattan Island who were carrying the torch invariably
> woun=
> d up in the good Signor's premises to hear Mr. Lyman sing. Carrying the
> tor=
> ch describes the sad condition of a person, male or female, who has had a
> f=
> alling out with their loved one, sweetheart, wife, or husband.
> Such fallings out produce in the human bosom a terrible burning sensation
> -=
>  phew, how it burns! - but perhaps I am telling you something you already
> k=
> new. A man carrying the torch has been known to walk ten miles and not
> real=
> ize he has gone a block. He is practically unconscious.
> The object of one's affections has come to be described as a torch in the
> R=
> oaring Forties. Thus Mr. Doaks is said to have gone to the theatre with
> his=
>  torch, meaning his wife or perchance his sweetheart.
> It was Mr. Tommy Lyman who, out of the depths of his great personal
> experie=
> nce, originated the expression, carrying the torch, to describe the
> conditi=
> on of mind and body aforesaid. Also Mr. Tommy Lyman wrote the first really
> =
> important torch song.
> A torch song is the product of a song writer suffering in the manner set
> fo=
> rth. Some very good torch songs have been written by Mr. Walter Donaldson,
> =
> Mr. Billy Rose, and Mr. Roy Turk, among others. But Mr. Tommy Lyman's
> torch=
>  song remains to this day the official anthem of the torch carriers. It
> run=
> s: "Gee, but it's tough when the gang's gone home," etc.>>
> The headings for the column include "The Torch Singer Writer," in
> reference=
>  to Lyman's letter, so this is also an antedating of "torch singer" (1934
> i=
> n OED). Runyon subsequently used some of this information in his story
> "The=
>  Lily of St. Pierre" (1930). There is some information on the song with
> the=
>  lyrics "Gee, but it's tough when the gang's gone home" at the end of a
> blo=
> g post at
> https://jazzlives.wordpress.com/2015/01/26/good-for-what-ails-you=
> -steve-wright-ray-skjelbred-dave-brown-mike-daugherty-january-24-2015/
> <https://jazzlives.wordpress.com/2015/01/26/good-for-what-ails-you=-steve-wright-ray-skjelbred-dave-brown-mike-daugherty-january-24-2015/>
> <http=
> s://
> jazzlives.wordpress.com/2015/01/26/good-for-what-ails-you-steve-wright-=
> ray-skjelbred-dave-brown-mike-daugherty-january-24-2015
> <http://jazzlives.wordpress.com/2015/01/26/good-for-what-ails-you-steve-wright-=ray-skjelbred-dave-brown-mike-daugherty-january-24-2015>>,
> although the post=
> er thought the song to have been composed by Harry Warren, writing as
> Harry=
>  Herschel, in 1928. Since Runyon, who thought that Lyman wrote the song,
> wa=
> s quoting it in 1926, it could not have been written by Warren/Herschel in
> =
> 1928.
> There are earlier examples of "torch song," although these may not be the
> s=
> ame usage. From the Los Angeles Herald (July 21, 1908) (Newspapers.com):
> "T=
> he decorations of the house boat, as well as the illuminations used with
> th=
> e torch song, form an effective bit of novelty, and the eight or nine
> membe=
> rs of the company each do a stunt, which is sufficiently good to make the
> n=
> umber one of the best on this week's bill."
> From the Sydney (Aust.) Newsletter (Jan. 23, 1909) (NewspaperArchive):
> "Hel=
> lo, Little Boy. Hello, the electric torch song, was first popularised in
> Gr=
> eat Britain by Violet Loraine, who made her name with it. It has been
> featu=
> red in almost every British pantomime this year."
> From the Boston Globe (Mar. 18, 1915) (Newspapers.com): "Miss Dora I.
> Brown=
> , dancing exhibition and torch song".
> From the (Mount Vernon, Iowa) Cornellian (Jan. 25, 1924)
> (NewspaperArchive)=
> : "Interest and inspiration in songwriting are waxing more intense as the
> t=
> ime draws near for the Torch song contest to be closed. . . . The previous
> =
> deadline was set for February first, but the Torch has now determined upon
> =
> February 6th as the last day on which songs can be submitted for the
> contes=
> t."
> John Baker
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> ericandialect.org>
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