[Ads-l] Antedating 'ham-and-egger'

James Eric Lawson jel at NVENTURE.COM
Fri Dec 30 17:58:44 UTC 2022


That 1907 citation is valuable Garson, thank you.

The 1902 citation I provided does correspond to the OEDO sense, however.
Certainly the overpriced "plebian" menu item elevated to a type in the
newspaper article is a "thing regarded as average, mediocre, or
(occasionally)...inferior", and the writer of the article makes his
opinion plain.

So the phrase 'ham-and-egger' was not, so far as I have discovered,
initially applied to boxers, but rather to overpriced standard fare in
New Orleans--but I don't mean to foreclose on fresh earlier evidence of
the phrase if such can be found.

I did initially consider using the OEDO waffle (square brackets) for
quotations "relevant to the development of a sense but not directly
illustrative of it", but on closer examination decided that the
quotation was directly illustrative of the sense as defined, especially
in light of the earliest (1911) OEDO evidence's application of the
phrase to a train.

On 12/29/22 11:31, ADSGarson O'Toole wrote:
> Dan Goncharoff wrote:
>> I'm confused. The 1902 cite looks like a sandwich. The other two cities
>> look like fighters.
> 
> It does seem that "ham and egger" in the 1902 citation referred to a
> meal of ham and eggs and not to a mediocre performer. Here is a longer
> except from the 1902 citation:
> 
> Date: June 4, 1902
> Newspaper: The Times-Democrat
> Newspaper Location: New Orleans, Louisiana
> Article: Increased Cost of Travel
> Quote Page 6, Column 3
> Database: Newspapers.com
> 
> [Begin excerpt]
> Hotel and restaurant prices have risen enormously in the North, due
> partly to the increased price of meat, but more to the natural avarice
> of the human race. Hotel and restaurant proprietors have taken
> advantage of the increase of cost in running one department to raise
> prices all around, until the plebeian "ham and egger" is out of the
> reach of everybody but the owner of trust securities.
> [End excerpt]
> 
> Here is the pertinent OED excerpt presenting the desired sense. The
> phrase "ham and egger" was initially applied to boxers.
> 
> [Begin OED excerpt]
> ham-and-egger  n. U.S. slang (freq. depreciative) a person or thing
> regarded as average, mediocre, or (occasionally) stupid or inferior;
> spec. (esp. in early use) an average or incompetent boxer (cf. sense
> A. 5).
> [End OED excerpt]
> 
> Here is a 1907 citation referring to a mediocre boxer.
> 
> Date: October 29, 1907
> Newspaper: The Kentucky Post
> Newspaper Location: Covington, Kentucky
> Article: EXPLODED PHENOMS-No.1
> Quote Page 6, Column 4
> Database: GenealogyBank
> 
> [Begin excerpt]
> Four short months ago Bill Squires. Australian pugilist, man-eater and
> miner, arose in his might and challenged the world. "I've beaten the
> life out of everybody in the Antipodes," roared Bill.
> . . .
> Bill was no Caesar. One hefty wallop, manned by Tommy Burns, did the
> business. Bill tried again. He also failed again. Now he is a
> ham-and-egger. Poor Bill!
> [End excerpt]
> 
> Garson
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Thu, Dec 29, 2022, 12:57 AM James Eric Lawson <jel at nventure.com> wrote:
>>
>>> OEDO 1911
>>>
>>> 1902  *The Times-Democrat* (New Orleans, Louisiana) 04 Jun 6/3
>>> (newspapers.com) Hotel and restaurant proprietors have taken advantage
>>> of the increase of cost in running one department to raise prices all
>>> around, until the plebeian "ham and egger" is out of the reach of
>>> everybody but the owner of trust securities.
>>>
>>> https://www.newspapers.com/clip/115367462/ham-and-egger/
>>>
>>> 1908  *Marysville Evening Democrat* (California) 03 Nov 4/2
>>> (newspapers.com) Ralph Calloway, about as tough a specimen of the
>>> ham-and-egger that boosts of 145 at 6 o'clock, was next pitted against
>>> Lumbard and the fans witnessed a slugging exhibition that mode them sit
>>> up and take a look.
>>>
>>> https://www.newspapers.com/clip/115367495/ham-and-egger/
>>>
>>> 1909  *The Tampa Tribune* (Florida) 07 Nov 31/7 (newspapers.com)
>>> Whatever his record as a ham-and-egger, Bill was pure grit after fame
>>> found him.
>>>
>>> https://www.newspapers.com/clip/115367549/ham-and-egger/
>>>
>>> --
>>> James Eric Lawson
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

-- 
James Eric Lawson

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org


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