[Ads-l] surface roads/streets

[Dan Goncharoff]

The High Line is an elevated park.

On Mon, Sep 12, 2022, 8:37 PM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu> wrote:

> And then (now) there's the High Line, which is neither a surface street nor
> a highway.  Nor, depending on your definition, a street period.
>
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 4:32 PM Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > My understanding was always that surface line was used in the
> rail/trolley
> > biz in NYC back in the 19th century, and surface street was used as a
> > retronym contrast to highways right from the conception of highways.
> >
> > Google has a map with a fragment view that mentions "Manhattan surface
> > streets" in a 1937 doc about the Queens-Midtown Tunnel (opened in 1940).
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 12, 2022, 4:19 PM Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > When is a street ever a freeway??
> > >
> > > On Mon, Sep 12, 2022, 12:55 PM Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On the latest episode of "That's What They Say" from Michigan Public
> > Radio
> > >> (featuring Univ. of Michigan's Anne Curzan), they discuss a listener's
> > >> question about the expression "surface roads" or "surface streets."
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> https://www.michiganradio.org/podcast/thats-what-they-say/2022-09-11/twts-beneath-the-surface-road
> > >>
> > >> Anne notes that "surface road" started out with the meaning given in
> > >> Random
> > >> House Unabridged (and still on Dictionary.com): "a road or street
> level
> > >> with its surroundings," as in "surface roads and elevated highways."
> OED
> > >> defines "surface road" as "a road running along the surface of the
> > ground,
> > >> as distinct from one which is elevated or underground," with the note,
> > "In
> > >> early use applied to railroads; now more usually to roads for motor
> > >> vehicles."
> > >>
> > >> As the listener observes, "surface roads" are now contrasted with
> > >> "highways." Anne says the meaning is "out there" but "you won't find
> it
> > in
> > >> dictionaries yet." She cites an example from the US version of "The
> > >> Office"
> > >> where a character who is supposed to be driving to the hospital asks,
> > >> "Highways or surface roads?"
> > >>
> > >> Wiktionary (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/surface_street) doesn't
> have
> > >> an
> > >> entry for "surface road" but it does have "surface street" with the
> > newer
> > >> meaning: "A street that is not a freeway and has at-grade
> intersections
> > >> with other surface streets."
> > >>
> > >> I associate this meaning of "surface street" with Los Angeles
> > especially,
> > >> and sure enough, the databases take it way back in L.A. papers, with
> > >> "surface streets" contrasting with "freeways." Here it is from 1941
> when
> > >> the freeway system was in its planning stages:
> > >>
> > >> ---
> > >> https://www.newspapers.com/clip/109416009/surface-streets/
> > >> Los Angeles Times, Aug. 19, 1941, p. 1, col. 8
> > >> "Need to Build Freeways Stressed at Hearing"
> > >> Members of the City Council's public works and State and county
> affairs
> > >> committees yesterday opened their public hearing on the City Planning
> > >> Commission's request for adoption of a system of 200 miles of freeways
> > in
> > >> the city as part of the master plan for Los Angeles... Glenn A. Rick,
> > >> director of city planning, explained the program as one contemplating
> a
> > >> modern parkway system to handle the needs of the growing city and
> > declared
> > >> the time had passed for handling city traffic by congested surface
> > >> streets.
> > >> ---
> > >>
> > >> It's possible that early freeway planners envisioned an elevated
> system,
> > >> which would provide an obvious contrast to "surface" roads/streets. In
> > any
> > >> case, by the '60s, the "freeway"/"surface street" distinction was very
> > >> common in SoCal, e.g.:
> > >>
> > >> ---
> > >> https://www.newspapers.com/clip/109415852/surface-streets/
> > >> Long Beach Press-Telegram, Oct. 25, 1968, p. 25, col. 5
> > >> You may feel you’re taking your life in your hands every time you
> drive
> > on
> > >> the freeway, but your chances of being killed are actually much
> greater
> > on
> > >> surface streets.
> > >> ---
> > >>
> > >> It's surprising that none of the major dictionaries have picked up on
> > this
> > >> now-established meaning of "surface road/street."
> > >>
> > >> --bgz
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >>
> > >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>

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