[Ads-l] "Go [the] whole cloth" [1905]

[Bonnie Taylor-Blake]

Welp, apologies again.

Here's a link to OED's definitions and usages for "whole cloth,"

https://tarheels.live/adsl/wp-content/uploads/sites/4603/2023/07/whole-cloth-n.-adj.-and-adv.-_-Oxford-English-Dictionary.pdf

And a link to a suspicious 1792 use,

https://tarheels.live/adsl/wp-content/uploads/sites/4603/2023/07/The_Mail_or_Claypooles_Daily_Advertiser_1792-12-21_2.pdf

Peter Reitan's excellent blog posts are at,

https://esnpc.blogspot.com/2015/02/nine-yards-to-dollar-history-and.html
https://esnpc.blogspot.com/2015/08/nine-yards-cut-from-whole-cloth-or-too.html

And link to Dave Wilton's take on the topic of "the whole nine yards,"

https://www.wordorigins.org/big-list-entries/whole-nine-yards

Some early uses (1907-1930) of "the whole nine yards" and variants are at

https://tarheels.live/adsl/wp-content/uploads/sites/4603/2023/07/Early-forms.pdf

And Fred Shapiro's announcement of Richard Bucci's 1850 find:

https://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/2015-April/136840.html

On to the next message to double-check and fix links!

-- Bonnie

On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 11:52 AM Bonnie Taylor-Blake <
b.taylorblake at gmail.com> wrote:

> In looking for early examples of "made from whole cloth" and "cut from
> whole cloth" and related to indicate falsehoods, I stumbled on several
> appearances of the new-to-me "go [the] whole cloth," which signifies
> something distinct from falsehood.
>
> In a sense, "go the whole cloth" resembles "go [the] whole hog," not just
> in form, but also in meaning.
>
> Importantly, OED3 has a few definitions for "whole cloth" that other
> dictionaries don't; these may help us better understand "go the whole
> cloth." You can find them at https://t.ly/x6lq. (The closest that I can
> think could apply here is the OED's description of the adverbial form of
> "whole cloth": "Chiefly North American. As a whole; without making use of
> anything that has gone before; completely; outright," but the examples that
> are provided by OED don't really fit with "go the whole cloth" presented
> here.)
>
>
> As far as I can tell, "go [the] whole cloth" starts showing up in American
> newspapers ca. 1905; it persists into the 21st century. Examples of uses
> from 1905-1950 follow. (I'm going to set off examples of various texts
> throughout this message with ***.)
>
> *** Now we will say to our converted contemporaries that if you want to go
> the whole cloth, advocate the enactment of a fair election law, the repeal
> of the law to protect election thieves and lets [sic] have honest elections
> in this State. ["Let's Have Honest Elections," The Caucasian (Raleigh,
> N.C.), 9 March 1905, p. 2.]
>
> *** But if our wise legislators thus seek to differentiate between the
> local or Federal benefits from projects carried out in the District bill,
> let them go the whole cloth; divide and divorce on that basis every item
> from beginning to end; recast the accounts from top to bottom and start out
> on a brand-new basis of financing the Capital. Give the local taxpayers the
> right to speak as to when and how their own money will be spent; reserve to
> themselves, as now, the decisions on how Federal money will be spent. [From
> "Municipal Center Financing," The Evening Star (Washington, D.C.), 18 April
> 1930, p. A-8.]
>
> *** Consistency demands that if the financial responsibility of the
> Federal Government be measured according to its tax debt, there will be an
> accompanying measurement of financial responsibility springing from the
> other items mentioned. If there are no other obligations, then let the
> Federal Government go the whole cloth and assume the role of the taxpayer
> who leaves the responsibility and power of government to others. ["The
> Federal Obligation, The Evening Star (Washington, D.C.), 22 May 1930, p.
> A-8.]
>
> *** Why not go the whole cloth? Recognizing the need, why not supply that
> need according to the principles and the practices followed in every city,
> town and hamlet of the Nation except the Capital? ["Why Not Go All the
> Way?," The Evening Star (Washington, D.C.), 26 April 1931, p. 2.]
>
> *** Textilians would doubtless have an American embargo on Japan go the
> whole cloth. ["Paragraphs," The Greensboro (N.C.) Daily News, 14 February
> 1940, p. 6. Obviously this is a pun, but it does reinforce that "go the
> whole cloth" signifies "go all the way."]
>
> *** John laughed quietly. "Eve likes to pretend we have a maid who serves
> the coffee. Isn't that it, Mrs. D.?" "Partly, I suppose," Eve answered.
> "Only if I went the whole cloth, we'd have it in the drawing room -- if we
> had a drawing room ... " [Ruth Hawthorne, "The Mother-In-Law," St.
> Louis Globe-Democrat, This Week Magazine, 7 October 1945, p. 76.]
>
> *** The Indianapolis Purchasing Agents' Association, meeting today noon in
> the Athenaeum, will go whole cloth. They will view a film, "The King's
> Other Life," which describes in Technicolor the picking, manufacturing,
> cleaning, carting, weaving and printing of cotton cloth. [In Robert
> Kellum's Business and Industry column, The Indianapolis Star, 3 April 1947,
> p. 26.]
>
> *** It looks as though cotton support prices for 1951 won't go the whole
> cloth. ["Paragraphs," The Greensboro (N.C.) Daily News, 26 November 1950,
> p. 4, Feature Section.]
>
>
> In my earlier message on "whole cloth" used to signify falsehood, I had
> included a 1792 instance of "go through the whole cloth," which might be
> used to indicate falsehood or inaccuracy, but which also strikes me as a
> potential one-off form of "go the whole cloth" with the meaning "go all the
> way."
>
> *** I have been informed that it was in direct violation of our present
> glorious constitution ; and that therefore it not to be obeyed. The
> unconstitutionality of the law, he said, has not been proved. Very well
> said I, then let us go through the whole cloth -- it is not the assemblice
> [sic] and concerts carried on in violation of the law? He said he did not
> know that they were. [From "Theatrical Intelligence," The Mail; or,
> Claypoole's Daily Advertiser (Philadelphia), 21 December 1792, p. 2. For
> context, see article at https://t.ly/KdC_0.]
>
>
> One reason I thought it worthwhile to share this little-enountered idiom
> is that list-member Peter Reitan, in writing about the origin of "the whole
> nine/six yards" (you knew I'd get there), has mentioned "cut from whole
> cloth" and similar as supporting that "the whole nine yards" may be
> patterned after yards of fabric. You can read his analyses of whether the
> expression is based on material (he offers specific reasons for why "nine"
> and why "six") and, further, whether it's related to "cut from whole cloth"
> at
> https://esnpc.blogspot.com/2015/02/nine-yards-to-dollar-history-and.html
>  and
> https://esnpc.blogspot.com/2015/08/nine-yards-cut-from-whole-cloth-or-too.html.
> He also brought this up on ADS-L in 2015.
>
> That "the whole nine yards" is based on fabric lengths/uses -- specific or
> otherwise -- has been a popular theory for several decades. There are other
> theories about what, if anything, the idiom may be based on. (Dave Wilton
> also presents a nice run-down of figurative "yards" that could be at the
> heart of the idiom:
> https://www.wordorigins.org/big-list-entries/whole-nine-yards.)
>
> I don't know whether "go the whole cloth" is a cousin of "[go] the whole
> nine yards," whether one influenced the formation of the other, or whether
> these are distinct idioms that developed separately and were used in
> parallel.
>
> I also don't know whether these uses of "go the whole cloth" reinforce a
> notion that "the whole nine yards" may be based on fabric.
>
> But I thought I'd make a roundabout point or two about the latter with
> respect to the former.
>
>
> The earliest known appearances of "the whole/full nine yards" and "the
> whole six yards" (1907-1930; see https://t.ly/C0QCK) rely on "promise,"
> "stolen," "tell," "take," "heard," "give," "settled," "stood through," and
> "is," rather than "go." That's not to say that a form involving "go" wasn't
> also in use ca. 1905; it's just that we haven't located it yet. (We do know
> that "go the full nine yards" was in use in Louisville at least by 1946.)
>
> For what it's worth, here's a 1947 usage of "whole cloth" that relies on
> "give." It certainly does resemble uses of "the whole nine yards" --
> especially "give [them/him/you] the whole nine/six yards" -- from 20 and 30
> years earlier.
>
> *** Now that we have gone this far, we may as well give you the whole
> cloth in one piece about the Ratterman vs. Leahy biz, and why the young
> man, who would have been everybody's All American this Fall at Notre Dame,
> is, instead, playing for Jim Breuill's long green. [Then a long explanation
> follows. In a section titled "The Whole Story," within Cy Kritzer's "Leahy
> Might Have Taken Army If He'd Pushed Ratterman," The Buffalo (N.Y.) Evening
> News, 26 August 1947, p. 3. Kritzer, who spent his early life near
> Scranton, Pennsylvania, was born around 1908.]
>
>
> Getting back to "go the whole nine yards" specifically, I'll note that a
> report on the visit of a "famous revivalist" to a small church near
> Whitwick, Leicestershire in late June, 1855 features "go nine yards round"
> in a semi-familiar figurative sense:
>
> *** "He says 'Pray short, I tell you; let's have some of that holy ghost
> stuff -- not go nine yards round; let's have some of that holy ghost
> stuff.' He commanded every body to kneel down and pray." [From "Local
> Summary," Leicester (England) Chronicle, or Commercial and Agricultural
> Advertiser, 7 July 1855, p. 3.]
>
> Probably the above 1855 British "go nine yards round" is just an isolated
> usage (I haven't found other examples) and is not very meaningful in the
> scheme of things, but to me it seems to suggest excessiveness or
> circuitousness in the same way Richard Bucci's 1850 Missouri
> perhaps-proto-idiom find does. (For background, see Fred Shapiro's message
> at https://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/2015-April/136840.htm
> <https://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/2015-April/136840.html>
> .)
>
> *** Your last "nine yards" would be unworthy of notice, as it commences
> with a falsehood and ends with a lie ... I will not attempt to follow you
> through your "nine yards" in all its serpentine windings ...
>
> (I would be remiss if I didn't reiterate that Peter Reitan's analysis of
> this 1850 usage at
> https://esnpc.blogspot.com/2015/08/nine-yards-cut-from-whole-cloth-or-too.html emphasizes
> "nine yards" in the above example as signifying untruth and argues against
> a meaning of excessiveness.)
>
> -- Bonnie
>

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