[Ads-l] Very Small Antedating of "Dixie"

Sat Jul 26 15:54:28 UTC 2025

Though Emmett was not fully forthcoming about the inspiration(s) of the song, he did plausibly regret that it was appreciated in the South, writing in 1861, "If I had known to what use they were going to put my song, I will be damned if I'd have written it."

Stephen
________________________________
From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of Jonathan Lighter <00001aad181a2549-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2025 6:22 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Very Small Antedating of "Dixie"

That statement is no longer operative.

JL

On Fri, Jul 25, 2025 at 6:16 PM Ben Zimmer <
00001aae0710f4b7-dmarc-request at listserv.uga.edu> wrote:

> If you're referring to my 2020 Atlantic piece on "Dixie" (
> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Farchive.is%2FMh4eB&data=05%7C02%7Cgoranson%40DUKE.EDU%7C7afd076e4fa54a67c1d908ddcbc9de38%7Ccb72c54e4a314d9eb14a1ea36dfac94c%7C0%7C0%7C638890790456518706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=v8FxXYvkkp4%2FLDyEZhJpFbNN%2FmLSzH2mbHbUirMlzn4%3D&reserved=0)<https://archive.is/Mh4eB>, I got that info from (checks notes) J. Lighter,
> HDAS.
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 25, 2025 at 5:52 PM Jonathan Lighter <
> 00001aad181a2549-dmarc-request at listserv.uga.edu> wrote:
>
> > It is claimed in various places, including Wikipedia and the Atlantic,
> that
> > Emmett used the phrase "Dixie's Land" earlier in his song "Jonny [or
> > "Johnny"] Roach," allegedly first performed in February or March, 1859.
> >
> > Emmett's biographer, Hans Nathan, dated the song to "March, 1859," based
> on
> > "a program in 1859 in a bound volume of Bryant's programs of 1859-60, now
> > in the Harvard College Library."
> >
> > Be that as it may, the earliest mention of a performance of "Jonny/
> Johnny
> > Roach" in Newspapers.com & GenealogyBank is in the N. Y. Herald of Dec.
> 4,
> > 1859, many months after the better known song.
> >
> > JL
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 25, 2025 at 3:17 PM Stephen Goranson <
> > 0000179d4093b2d6-dmarc-request at listserv.uga.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > To illustrate the ambiguity of Dixie's Land song, it was liked by both
> > > Abraham Lincoln and Jefferson Davis.
> > >
> > > sg
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
> > > Stephen Goranson <0000179d4093b2d6-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Sent: Friday, July 25, 2025 12:24 PM
> > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Subject: Re: Very Small Antedating of "Dixie"
> > >
> > > Posted before, from January, 1861:
> > >
> > > Miss Dix's Land
> > > Sing-Sing
> > >
> > > Vanity Fair, New York, v.3, 45/2
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.com%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DM1I5AQAAMAAJ%26pg%3DPA45%26dq%3Dsing%2B%2522miss%2Bdix%2527s%2Bland%2B%2522%26hl%3Den%26newbks%3D1%26newbks_redir%3D0%26sa%3DX%26ved%3D2ahUKEwirhdb3s9iOAxUSkmoFHdxePK8Q6AF6BAgGEAM%23v%3Donepage%26q%3Dsing%2520%2522miss%2520dix%27s%2520land%2520%2522%26f%3Dfalse&data=05%7C02%7Cgoranson%40DUKE.EDU%7C7afd076e4fa54a67c1d908ddcbc9de38%7Ccb72c54e4a314d9eb14a1ea36dfac94c%7C0%7C0%7C638890790456541483%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=2MVYMoWgjCUiyNjrL9aXIsWD%2FHyXKQfPERmSNFwvn3Y%3D&reserved=0<https://books.google.com/books?id=M1I5AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA45&dq=sing+%22miss+dix%27s+land+%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwirhdb3s9iOAxUSkmoFHdxePK8Q6AF6BAgGEAM#v=onepage&q=sing%20%22miss%20dix's%20land%20%22&f=false>
> > > <
> > >
> >
> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.com%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DM1I5AQAAMAAJ%26pg%3DPA45%26dq%3Dsing%2B%2522miss%2Bdix%2527s%2Bland%2B%2522%26hl%3Den%26newbks%3D1%26newbks_redir%3D0%26sa%3DX%26ved%3D2ahUKEwirhdb3s9iOAxUSkmoFHdxePK8Q6AF6BAgGEAM%23v%3Donepage%26q%3Dsing%2520%2522miss%2520dix%27s%2520land%2520%2522%26f%3Dfalse&data=05%7C02%7Cgoranson%40DUKE.EDU%7C7afd076e4fa54a67c1d908ddcbc9de38%7Ccb72c54e4a314d9eb14a1ea36dfac94c%7C0%7C0%7C638890790456555631%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=fOh5Gq%2Fb1kAX0yOxL2Hv0p4TBWouKc5xVrtrjhdRzbg%3D&reserved=0<https://books.google.com/books?id=M1I5AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA45&dq=sing+%22miss+dix%27s+land+%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwirhdb3s9iOAxUSkmoFHdxePK8Q6AF6BAgGEAM#v=onepage&q=sing%20%22miss%20dix's%20land%20%22&f=false>
> > > >
> > >
> > > sg
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
> > > Stephen Goranson <0000179d4093b2d6-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2025 9:25 AM
> > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Subject: Re: Very Small Antedating of "Dixie"
> > >
> > > Dorothea Dix (called, e.g., the Mrs. Elizabeth Fry of the US) was quite
> > > famous when the song was composed. As was her effort to establish Dix's
> > > Land in Raleigh, NC.
> > >
> > > More famous, perhaps, than the game that may have been played in NY.
> > > More so,  in the north, than the New Orleans dix note.
> > > Less so, perhaps, than the Mason Dixon Line, though the Dixon to Dixie
> to
> > > the South multiple transitions proposal may be tenuous. Was then the
> > North
> > > Mason-associated?
> > >
> > > The original lyrics were what, ironic, illogical nostalgia put in the
> > > mouths of free Blacks in the North? Belittled by a blackface minstrel?
> > >
> > > Later, later, adapted and adopted or co-opted, in the South as southern
> > > pride.
> > >
> > > If so, then, originally crazy talk. And where were "crazy people" sent?
> > > To an asylum. Notionally, such as Dix's land. (Easier to sing Dixie.)
> > > Before becoming a contested anthem, given the catchy music, slighting
> > some
> > > Blacks and maybe also a do-gooder woman?
> > > Maybe, maybe not.
> > >
> > > Stephen Goranson
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
> > > Stephen Goranson <0000179d4093b2d6-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2025 2:02 PM
> > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Subject: Re: Very Small Antedating of "Dixie"
> > >
> > > Though some Dix-plus games were not in the south,
> > > Dix's Land proposal was in the south, Raleigh.
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
> > > Jonathan Lighter <00001aad181a2549-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2025 1:56 PM
> > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Subject: Re: Very Small Antedating of "Dixie"
> > >
> > > I was niggling pedantically that in principle "Dixie's Land" doesn't
> > > require the existence of a synonymous "Dixie."
> > >
> > > But the lyrics are the lyrics. They can't have changed that much
> between
> > > April 1859 and April 1860 without a complete rewrite, of which there is
> > no
> > > evidence whatsoever.
> > >
> > > It's noteworthy (but hardly news) that the correct title of the song is
> > > "Dixie's Land," which in the sheet music is also where the singer will
> > take
> > > his stand, and he wishes he was in "Dixie."
> > >
> > > The more euphonious "Dixie land" begins to appear in Newspapers.com in
> > > January, 1861.
> > >
> > > None of these terms, when meaning the American South, has been
> antedated.
> > >
> > > JL
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jul 23, 2025 at 1:09 PM Stephen Goranson <
> > > 0000179d4093b2d6-dmarc-request at listserv.uga.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Though we now tend to think and hear Dixieland, even Emmett in 1872
> > > > (as previously posted; his story varied) claimed northern negroes
> said
> > "I
> > > > wish I was in Dixie's land."
> > > > Much is iffy, but the possessive, dropped in the song, may be worth
> > > notice.
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
> > > > Stephen Goranson <0000179d4093b2d6-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2025 12:00 PM
> > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > Subject: Re: Very Small Antedating of "Dixie"
> > > >
> > > > possessive
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
> > > > Stephen Goranson <0000179d4093b2d6-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2025 11:27 AM
> > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > Subject: Re: Very Small Antedating of "Dixie"
> > > >
> > > > Dixie's Land—note the plural. 1859
> > > > "Dickies' Land" game 1856
> > > > "those who go to Dixey's land must be Dixey's men" game 1855 [cf .
> > > > sim.1844?]
> > > > And, what I think is under-appreciated:
> > > > Dorothea Dix's Land Bill, for an asylum in North Carolina, multiple
> > > times,
> > > > 1854 , and belittled in NY in 1861
> > > >
> > > > Stephen Goranson
> > > > NC
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
> > > > Jonathan Lighter <00001aad181a2549-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2025 10:43 AM
> > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > Subject: Re: Very Small Antedating of "Dixie"
> > > >
> > > > Nice, Fred.
> > > >
> > > > There can't be any doubt that the form "Dixie" appeared in Emmett's
> > song
> > > > from the beginning.
> > > >
> > > > The text, however, seems not to have been published till 1860.
> Possibly
> > > the
> > > > earliest published quote from the song to include the word "Dixie"
> > > > [Newspapers.com]:
> > > >
> > > > 1860 _Daily Times-Picayune_ (N.O.) (Apr. 19) 1: To the tune of "I
> wish
> > I
> > > > was in Dixie."
> > > >
> > > > This may have been posted earlier.
> > > >
> > > > JL
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Jul 23, 2025 at 9:38 AM Shapiro, Fred <
> > > > 00001ac016895344-dmarc-request at listserv.uga.edu> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Barry Popik and Jonathan Lighter have done magnificent etymological
> > > > > research on the word "Dixie," connecting it to the name of a
> > children's
> > > > > game and to the "Mason-Dixon Line."  Here is a tiny (one-day)
> > > antedating
> > > > of
> > > > > the OED's entry for "Dixie" meaning the Southern United States:
> > > > >
> > > > > Dixie (OED 1959 [4 Apr.])
> > > > >
> > > > > 1859 New York Herald 3 Apr. 7/5 (Newspapers.com)
> > > > >
> > > > > BRYANT'S MINSTRELS. ... DIXIE'S LAND, another new Plantation
> > Festival.
> > > > >
> > > > > Fred Shapiro
> > > > >
> >
>
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