[Ads-l] Slight Antedating of "Cool" (African American / Jazz Sense)

Tue Nov 4 22:01:18 UTC 2025

You guys spoil all my fun.

I was very conscious that "ball" and "hall" look pretty similar, and that if it was "hall" it would clearly be a climatic comment.  On a little screen I concluded that it was a "b," but looking at it on a larger screen I see it was an "h."  Thanks to Ben and Jon for pointing this out (this gives me the opportunity to refer to "Jon" rather than to "John" as I did in a recent email).

I find Ben's comments about Zora Hurston and the OED's judgments about the two senses of "cool" to be very interesting.  For many of the more polysemous entries, I don't know how they make such fine distinctions meaningfully.

Fred Shapiro

________________________________
From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of Jonathan Lighter <00001aad181a2549-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, November 4, 2025 2:02 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Slight Antedating of "Cool" (African American / Jazz Sense)

Ben beat me to it.

JL

On Tue, Nov 4, 2025 at 2:01 PM Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Given the July date and lack of a/c in 1933,  maybe the Elks hall simply
> had more fans and higher ceilings.
>
> JL
>
> On Tue, Nov 4, 2025 at 12:45 PM Ben Zimmer <
> 00001aae0710f4b7-dmarc-request at listserv.uga.edu> wrote:
>
>> Looking through other contemporary examples from the Pittsburgh Courier,
>> I'm more convinced that the use of "coolest" in Fred's cite is just
>> referring to the temperature inside the venue. Consider:
>>
>> ---
>> Pittsburgh Courier, July 26, 1930, p. 7, col. 1
>> "Jule Soliloquizes: The Heat, Cabarets, 'Hen' Kennedy, The Frogs, What
>> Good
>> Are We, Orchard View"
>> It was hot, no foolin'. [...] About the coolest spot in town Monday was
>> Dearing's Rendezvous.
>> ---
>> Pittsburgh Courier, July 1, 1933, p. 7, col. 6
>> "Carrigan at Temple, 4th"
>> [H]is only other appearance being the evenin' to dawnin' dance the night
>> of
>> July 3d at the coolest outdoor spot in western Pennsylvania, Mapleview
>> Park. [...] There will be plenty of cool stuff ... you know what we mean
>> ... to quench your thirst.
>> ---
>> Pittsburgh Courier, June 9, 1934, p. II8, col. 6
>> "Modern Cooling System To Give the Savoy An Alaskan Atmosphere: Polar-Like
>> Breezes to Make Pittsburgh's Most Beautiful Ballroom the 'Coolest Spot In
>> Town'"
>> "The coolest spot in town" will be the beautiful Savoy Ballroom [...] when
>> the installation of the new cooling system, which is already underway, is
>> completed.
>> ---
>>
>> --bgz
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 4, 2025 at 12:24 PM Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Tue, Nov 4, 2025 at 8:55 AM Shapiro, Fred <
>> > 00001ac016895344-dmarc-request at listserv.uga.edu> wrote:
>> >
>> >> cool (OED, 8.b., 1933 [August])
>> >>
>> >> 1933 Pittsburgh Courier 1 July 9 (ProQuest)
>> >>
>> >> The Northside Elks ball is rated the coolest in the city.
>> >
>> >
>> > Fascinating find, Fred. I took a look at the article on ProQuest, and I
>> > believe the quote is actually "The Northside Elks hall is rated the
>> coolest
>> > in the city" ("hall," not "ball"). This is referring to the Northside
>> Lodge
>> > of Elks No. 124, a venue that was used for social gatherings -- the
>> article
>> > mentions plans for an all-night party on July 3rd and a holiday dance on
>> > July 4th.
>> >
>> > So what does it mean for this venue to be "rated the coolest in the
>> city"?
>> > It's hard to say without any additional context. I'd note that OED3
>> > currently distinguishes these two senses:
>> >
>> > 8a: attractively shrewd or clever; sophisticated, stylish, classy;
>> > fashionable, up to date; sexually attractive (from 1918)
>> > 8b: (as a general term of approval) admirable, excellent (from 1933)
>> >
>> > It's possible the Northside Elks hall is being described as stylish or
>> > classy (8a), although the OED's examples for that sense are more about
>> > people than places. If it's indeed an example of 8b, I'd find it more
>> > compelling than what the OED currently has as the earliest cite for the
>> > sense: "And whut make it so cool, he got money 'cumulated," from Zora
>> Neale
>> > Hurston's story "The Gilded Six-Bits." In the past, I've questioned
>> whether
>> > the examples of "what/whut make it so cool" in Hurston's writings
>> should be
>> > thought of as illustrating the modern sense of "cool" as a general term
>> of
>> > approbation or the older sense meaning "audacious" (OED sense 2d).
>> >
>> >
>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flistserv.linguistlist.org%2Fpipermail%2Fads-l%2F2008-February%2F078756.html&data=05%7C02%7Cfred.shapiro%40YALE.EDU%7Caa9c5e191b61449198d608de1bd4c06f%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638978797733266408%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=GIVKmmVIuhA%2FfI4Y3MIe2tx1%2BQGkFQuSBgitMUzjXKQ%3D&reserved=0<https://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/2008-February/078756.html>
>> >
>> >
>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flistserv.linguistlist.org%2Fpipermail%2Fads-l%2F2008-September%2F084670.html&data=05%7C02%7Cfred.shapiro%40YALE.EDU%7Caa9c5e191b61449198d608de1bd4c06f%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638978797733304458%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=y0dSOrYO3jYsp9OeJ8BRgCRJIgQVcBV9Olx6HR3lyzo%3D&reserved=0<https://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/2008-September/084670.html>
>> >
>> > The Pittsburgh Courier example obviously wouldn't work with an
>> "audacious"
>> > reading, but I'm still unsure what kind of "coolness" they could be
>> talking
>> > about. Given that the article is about social events in the summertime,
>> > maybe they're just referring to the temperature inside the lodge!
>> >
>> > --bgz
>> >
>> >
>>
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>
>
> --
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>

--
"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."

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