[Algonquiana] Prehistoric Language contact ?

Fri Nov 21 12:24:01 UTC 2014

Danielle, and all

Oh you can get a large number of academic texts regardless of where you 
are or being near a university library if you join the following: 
ResearchGate, Academia.edu or you just search for what you're looking 
for using Google Scholar. More and more researchers are putting up their 
articles and scanning older publishers that weren't published as pdfs in 
ResearchGate and Academia.edu. I mention these two since they are the 
principal places where researchers in the humanities and social sciences 
tend to be there. There's many others for the hard sciences but I figure 
that you'd find more in the two that I've mentioned and best of all 
membership is free (I can send you an invite to ResearchGate too. Just 
let me know). I personally prefer ResaerchGate as you can have the types 
of discussion that we're having here but with larger numbers of people 
and correspondingly perspectives. It's great fun!

Best,
Alicia

On 11/20/2014 9:44 PM, Danielle E. Cyr wrote:
> Thanks Ives,
>
> This will be most useful I am sure. I'll try to get hold of it (I'm now retired and live in the Gaspe Peninsula, hundreds of ams away from the closest university library :-(
>
> Danielle
> P.S. About EA migrations, the analysis of Micmac place names along the St. Lawrence River and the hinterland of it corroborates that : it clearly indicates that they arrived directly in the Gaspe from somewhere west of Quebec City.
>
>
> Dr. Danielle E. Cyr, Senior Scholar at York University339, boul. Perron ouestNew Richmond, QC, 	G0C 2BOdcyr at yorku.ca - 418.392.7271
>
>
>> ---- Original Message ----
>> From: "Goddard, Ives" <GODDARDI at si.edu>
>> To: "'Michael McCafferty'" <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>, "algonquiana at listserv.linguistlist.org" <algonquiana at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> Sent: Thu, Nov 20, 2014, 4:18 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Algonquiana] Prehistoric Language contact ?
>>
>> For another archeological view see SJ Fiedel in Taming the Taxonomy, RF Williamson and CM Watts eds (1999).  He plumps for Point Peninsula, which spread east through New York to New England beginning ca. 2250 BP.  The problem is that Eastern dialectology strongly suggests that the Eastern Algs spread from north to south down the coast, since the diversity is in the north and PEA affinities are with Cree-Innu (if anyone) rather than, say, SFKSh.  This is also awkward for Northern Iroquoian.  Ives
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Algonquiana [mailto:algonquiana-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org] On Behalf Of Michael McCafferty
>> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2014 3:49 PM
>> To: algonquiana at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> Subject: Re: [Algonquiana] Prehistoric Language contact ?
>>
>> Danielle,
>>
>> There is quite a time discrepancy between the Plano Culture, which is late Paleo-Indian/Early Archaic and came to end around 6000 BC, and Algonquian, whose ancestral tongue Proto-Algonquian is thought to have been spoken in the Late Archaic around 2000 B.C. So, who the ancestral Mi'gmaq shared languages with is a pretty open question, is it not?
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Quoting "Danielle E. Cyr" <dcyr at yorku.ca>:
>>
>>> The case of the spread of the uvular in Europe is a great example. And
>>> a well studied one. Of course it happened at a time when German
>>> culture was immensely prestigious, namely through its music, science and literature.
>>> So, I guess, anyone who could speak her/his own language with a scent
>>> of a german accent was to be considered high class.
>>> This kind of setting does not sound likely among paleoindian cultures.
>>> I think that we are back to Peter Denny's hypothesis of a prolonged
>>> linguistic and cultural contact with a non Algonquian population.
>>> While doing some reading on the topic, I realized that there is still
>>> a wide gap between archaeology and linguistics. Wouldn't it be time
>>> that we address that ? Well, I think we are addressing it right now
>>> through this conversation.
>>> Best to All,
>>> Danielle
>>> Dr. Danielle E. Cyr, Senior Scholar at York University 339, boul.
>>> Perron ouest New Richmond, QC,  G0C 2BO dcyr at yorku.ca - 418.392.7271
>>> ---- Original Message ----
>>> From: David Costa
>>> To: "Algonquiana"
>>> Sent: Thu, Nov 20, 2014, 3:03 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Algonquiana] Prehistoric Language contact ?
>>>
>>> One reason why I think it would have taken more than just proximity
>>> for the nasal vowel to pass from Iroquoian into Algonquian is because
>>> the Iroquoian/Algonquian border is a much more formidable barrier than
>>> that between German and French, or German and Danish, let alone Danish
>>> and Norwegian. I?ve never seen any indication that Iroquoians and
>>> Algonquian learned each other?s languages with any kind of frequency,
>>> and there are no documented Iroquoian loans in Algonquian that I?m
>>> aware of (not even in Mahican). In fact, it?s hard to pin down any
>>> non-Algonquian influences on any Algonquian language (precontact, of
>>> course), aside from a few stray Siouan loans. So I suspect if Mahican
>>> acquired a whole new vowel from Mohawk, it took more than just both groups being in the Hudson Valley.
>>> Dave
>>> Folks,
>>>
>>>      I have to disagree with Monica. There are good examples where the
>>> history is well understood. It isn't magic clouds touching, but it
>>> need not be as intimate as intermarriage. Here's the best known example.
>>>      There has been a lot of work done on the uvular r in Europe, which
>>> spread from Paris to northern Germany and Denmark. Here's the wiki
>>> map, which looks about right.
>>> Distribution of guttural R (e.g. [? ? ?]) in Continental Europe in the
>>> mid-20th century.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guttural_R#cite_note-1)
>>> not usual   only in some educated speech   usual in educated speech
>>> general
>>>
>>> Two things to note: 1) the distribution does not coincide completely
>>> with any language boundary. 2) where it is not general, it is a marker
>>> of educated speech.
>>>  From early on (The Uvular r in French, Ernest F. Haden Language, Vol.
>>> 31, No. 4 (Oct. - Dec., 1955), pp. 504-510) the literature argues for
>>> sociolinguistic factors in the spread to neighboring languages
>>> (Italian, pg. 506-7 and German pg. 508). The conclusion being that the
>>> cultural prestige alone is enough to spread a phonological trait.
>>>
>>> You don't have to marry a French woman to learn an uvular r. (Or a
>>> Mohawk woman for that matter.) Jane Hill made a similar argument about
>>> the Northwest Coast, but with the wrinkle that having languages with
>>> (near) overlapping inventories made the learning of other languages
>>> easier in times of environmental distress where the ability to shift
>>> identity/allegiance could be a crucial survival tool.
>>> I just can't lay my hands on the reference at the moment.
>>> Rich
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 10:58 AM, Monica Macaulay  wrote:
>>> There?s a nice quote from Weinreich that I?ve always liked, on this
>>> topic:  ?The locus of language contact is in the mind of the
>>> bilingual.?  When I was an undergrad I kind of imagined these two
>>> clouds, Language A and Language B, and then magically they touched,
>>> and shared features.  Well, no.  ;-)  That contact is in the mind of
>>> the bilingual, or even better, in the minds of a bunch of them.
>>>> On Nov 20, 2014, at 12:38 PM, David Costa  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Generally what?s needed for this kind of borrowing is extensive
>>> bilingualism. That can take the form of large numbers of people from
>>> the ?other? group marrying in, or by a community gradually switching
>>> languages. The longer the period of bilingualism, the greater the
>>> influences that can be passed from one language to another. If the
>>> nasal vowel passed from Mohawk to Mahican (probably the most
>>> geographically plausible option), that might indicate that there was a
>>> large group of Mohawks somewhere who switched from speaking Iroquoian
>>> to Algonquian. Once the feature was established in Mahican, it would
>>> have been much easier to pass into other Algonquian languages,
>>> specifically Abenaki. (It?s already been established that there are
>>> Mahican loanwords in Western Abenaki.)
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Yes. Trade languages and their aboriginal use, I'm aware of. But
>>>>> I'm
>>> squeamish about accepting the notion that a handful of foreign terms
>>> borrowed into an unrelated language can have such a far-reaching
>>> effect phonologically on that language. Perhaps my imagination is
>>> limited. I will keep gnawing.
>>>>> Michael
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Quoting John Steckley :
>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another potential source of that influence could be trade
>>>>>> languages or lingua franca.  When I worked on Gabriel Sagard's
>>>>>> dictionary and discovered the presence of the dialects of Wendat
>>>>>> plus St. Lawrence Iroquoian, I found that the St. Lawrence
>>>>>> Iroquoian came in the form of a trade language, with certain key
>>>>>> items--awls, grapes, beads--highlighted.  Trade languages existed
>>>>>> in a variety of areas in
>>>>>> pre- and post-contact Aboriginal North America.  In addition to
>>>>>> what I found with the St. Lawrence Iroquoian example, there was
>>>>>> Mobilian (which included Algonquian and Iroquoian entries) in the
>>>>>> southeast, and, of course, Chinook on the West Coast.  Being
>>>>>> fluent in a trade language used between Iroquoian and Algonquian
>>>>>> speakers could cause there to be some phonetic influences.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Algonquiana
>>>>>> [mailto:algonquiana-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>> (mailto:algonquiana-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org)] On Behalf Of
>>>>>> Michael McCafferty
>>>>>> Sent: November 20, 2014 12:55 PM
>>>>>> To: algonquiana at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>> (mailto:algonquiana at listserv.linguistlist.org)
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Algonquiana] Prehistoric Language contact ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you so much, Ives, for your comments and, at least for me,
>>>>>> clearing away some of the fog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What I just cannot wrap my head around, though, is how a sound in
>>>>>> one language can influence the sound system of totally unrelated language.
>>>>>> All I can get at is that women from one language group married
>>>>>> into or were captured by another group speaking an unrelated
>>>>>> language, and in learning the unrelated language use sounds that
>>>>>> were in their native language that over time get adopted into the
>>>>>> sound system of their husbands. Is this the mechanism for this transfer?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Quoting "Goddard, Ives" :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Eastern duals.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This subject was broached if incompletely treated in my 1967
>>>>>>> papers (NMC Bull. 214:9-10, 104-105, with a reference to the
>>>>>>> issue having been earlier raised by Siebert in AA 42:331-333 and
>>>>>>> to his having
>>> told
>>>>>>> me that he no longer thought it was an Eastern archaism).  An
>>>>>>> Ottawa parallel for the formation of the Eastern AI triplural is
>>>>>>> cited, but more information on this would be welcome.  (I haven?t
>>>>>>> looked.)  In Delaware these marked plurals are commonly made as
>>>>>>> collectives, and many examples are to be found in O?Meara?s
>>>>>>> Munsee dictionary (his label is  ?emphatic?), as if built on the
>>>>>>> causative finals PEA *h and *r.  See entries for kchíiw and matáhkeew.
>>> Western
>>>>>>> Abenaki also appears to have the longer forms as marked (used for
>>>>>>> an indefinite number) but not as consistent triplurals.  I recall
>>>>>>> that the duals are used in Micmac for the people in a boat
>>>>>>> (always a countable number).  The comparative evidence shows this
>>> dual-triplural
>>>>>>> contrast gradually emerging and firming up within the Algonquian
>>>>>>> languages, becaming fully grammaticalized as such in the
>>>>>>> languages furthest from the Iroquoians.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Independently, Unami Delaware has a dual-triplural contrast in
>>>>>>> imperatives, at least for some speakers: mi:tsí:t:am ?let?s eat
>>>>>>> (I
>>> and
>>>>>>> you sg.)? vs. mi:tsí:t:amo:kw ?let?s eat (I and you pl.).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The nasalized vowel.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the other hand, it seems likely that the nasalized reflex of
>>>>>>> PEA
>>>>>>> *a: in Mahican, SNEA, and Abenaki reflects the influence of
>>>>>>> Mohawk, which has a nasalized vowel of exactly the same odd
>>>>>>> quality as what these languages seem usually to have (PAC 39:282 and n. 74).
>>>>>>> Penobscot Eastern Abenaki has (mostly) denasalized this vowel but
>>>>>>> retained this caret-vowel-like quality.  There will be a little
>>>>>>> more on this in my eventual ?Loup? paper in PAC 44.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ives
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: Algonquiana
>>>>>>> [mailto:algonquiana-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>> (mailto:algonquiana-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org)] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>> Conor Quinn
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2014 4:59 PM
>>>>>>> To: John Steckley
>>>>>>> Cc: ALGONQUIANA at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
>>> (mailto:ALGONQUIANA at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG)
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Algonquiana] Prehistoric Language contact ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dia dhaoibh, a chairde!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I'm not mistaken, the notional dual contrast is found in most
>>>>>>> (all?) of Eastern Algonquian, and definitely at least as far
>>>>>>> south as Western and Eastern Abenaki.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's a tricky pattern, because the "duals" are actually just the
>>>>>>> familiar verbal plurals of the rest of Algonquian.  E.g. they
>>>>>>> reflect the various plural person markings (among them reflex of
>>>>>>> PA *-aki (with Idp) or the EAlg version of PA *-wa·-t, i.e. *-h?ti?-t).
>>> While
>>>>>>> the more-than-dual plurals are limited to AI stems, with an added
>>>>>>> stem-extensional element---most but not all arising historically
>>>>>>> from transitivization (= TA), then reciprocalization (= AI
>>>>>>> again)---which then takes the same pluralization morphology as the "dual".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So the contrast looks like it emerges from a notion of a minimal
>>>>>>> plural (= just the general Algonquian plural morphology) vs. an
>>>>>>> extended/non-minimal plural (= this new stem-extensional element
>>> added
>>>>>>> in).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What's particularly striking about these systems is that they're
>>>>>>> not in fact strictly dual vs. strictly (more-than-two) plural.
>>>>>>> The familiar-Algonquian-type simple plurals generally do get a
>>>>>>> dual reading...but if the stems inherently imply more-than-two
>>>>>>> -type participants---e.g. if they incorporate a number 'three' or
>>>>>>> above, or refer to collective/mass action---they very often do
>>>>>>> not use the stem-extensional element, and so superficially have a "dual"
>>>>>>> pluralization pattern.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As far as I know, the only place where there's a completely
>>>>>>> strict dual vs. plural distinction is in the Mi'gmaq motion
>>>>>>> verbs, where -ie/-a' and -a'si (roughly, 'go..., change...') are
>>>>>>> systematically replaced with -a'ti for dual, and -(i)ta' for plural.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Apropos of the original question, I think Ives might have
>>>>>>> suggested a possible Iroquoian contact influence in one of his
>>>>>>> two papers on the "intrusive nasal" reflex of PEA *a?.  But I
>>>>>>> might be thinking of some other source; and it's always struck me
>>>>>>> as a little tenuous given
>>> that
>>>>>>> the N. Iroquoian languages I'm aware of systematically have
>>>>>>> contrastive nasalization only in vowels other than /a/.  So the
>>>>>>> contact effect would be oddly indirect/abstracted.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David Pentland and I have both independently noted some possible
>>> cases
>>>>>>> of lexical borrowing. Off the top of my head, 'eel' and 'great
>>>>>>> horned owl' in the northeastern-area Algonquian languages (i.e.
>>>>>>> Mi'gmaq gat(ew)-, PsmMl ka?t(e); Penobscot tiht?k?li, PsmMl
>>>>>>> tihtiko?l) may have Iroquoian links. I don't have the relevant
>>>>>>> Iroquian material at hand, though, and David likely has a more
>>>>>>> extensive list.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hope that helps!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Till later, keep safe and sane.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Slán,
>>>>>>> bhur gcara
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> P.S.  Is the Denny article the one that suggests PA *?entiy-
>>> 'conifer'
>>>>>>> as a possible loan from/with Siouan?  And points out the
>>>>>>> calque-cognacy (functional equivalence) of *wiki-wa·-hm- with
>>> t?i-pi?
>>>>>>> If not, who wrote that?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>> (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/algonquiana)
>>> Monica Macaulay
>>> University of Wisconsin
>>> Department of Linguistics
>>> 1164 Van Hise; 1220 Linden Dr.
>>> Madison, WI  53706
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Algonquiana mailing list
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>>> (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/algonquiana)
>>> --
>>> 	Richard A. Rhodes Associate Dean, Undergraduate Division College of
>>> Letters and Science 206 Evans #2924 University of California Berkeley,
>>> CA
>>> 94720
>>> The case of the spread of the uvular in Europe is a great example.
>>>
>>
>>
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