[An-lang] Proto-Dialect chains

[Paz B. Naylor]

Well, we have jump-started AN-LANG - mabuhay!
Let's keep it going the way it was.  Regards, Paz

----- Original Message -----
From: "Isidore Dyen" <dyen at hawaii.edu>
To: "John Lynch" <lynch_j at VANUATU.USP.AC.FJ>
Cc: "AUSTRONESIAN LANGUAGES AND LINGUISTICS" <AN-LANG at anu.edu.au>
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: [An-lang] Proto-Dialect chains


> The impression I have is that thre are two different things involved.
> The first is the the hypothesis of a prolanguage and the second is the
> membership in terms of languages and dialects in the subgroup emanating
> from that language. The protlanguage is in any case a dialect chain. No
> two speakers of the same language have identical idiolects (speech-
> types). A dialect is a collection of idiolects that share the same
> trait or collection of traits. A language is a collection of dialects
> (or idiolects)held together by a chain of peirs of mutually
> intelligible idiolects. A dialect-chain is a grouping of dialects that
> constitute a language. As a language your 'Ancestral..' is a
> protolanguage with a dialect membership that we can vaguely, if at all,
> see by way of reconstruction, not by imposing a shape to it, except as
> the procedures of reconstruction imply them. The kind of dialect chain
> that constituted the protolanguage is hard to infer from the data
> available without very detailed comparisons along the lines that you
> are engaged in and I hope you will continue to pursus. But as you can
> see, I see little point to trying to specify the ty[pe of membership of
> a protolanguage in its nomenclature. Ths is better handled in a list
> with indications of the interrelation of the members in a family tree
> that allows for multiple simultaneous branchings that indicate that we
> are unable to distinguish the order of the branchings because the
> necessary data are lacking and in many cases will never be accessible.
> I hope you will not take offense with my dealing with what I think of
> as the fubdamentals of comparative work, but i do believe that your
> problem as you presented it was best dealt with from a review of those
> fundamentals. Cordially and with best wishes for continued discussions.
> ID.
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>
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>
> Andrew Pawley and I have been having a little private e-discussion, but
felt
> it might be better to come on-list to get a wider spread of ideas.
>
> The query relates to the nomenclature used for protolanguages and families
> as opposed to proto-dialect chains and linkages. One might refer to the
> Polynesian subgroup, for example, and to Proto-Polynesian, as implying a
> (fairly) homogeneous and uniform single ancestral language. Forms labelled
> PPn *xyz would thus represent forms which, to the best of our knowledge,
> were part of that protolanguage.
>
> My concern is with dialect-chains. There was probably a Southern Oceanic
> linkage, an dialect-chain ancestral to the languages of Vanuatu and New
> Caledonia. To use the same nomenclature for this proto-dialect chain -
i.e.,
> Proto-Southern Oceanic - tends to imply that it is of the same nature as a
> more homogeneous protolanguage, which it is not.
>
> Nevertheless, it seems to me that it would be useful to have some fairly
> tight and neat way of referring to such ancestors, and not by some
> long-winded expression like "Ancestral Southern Oceanic dialect-chain" or
> some such, especially since one can legitimately also make reconstructions
> for such a "language", with the proviso that they are less secure and were
> probably more subject to internal variation than those made for
> protolanguages.
>
> My suggestion to Andy was to use lower-case p: proto-Southern Oceanic and
> pSOc as opposed tpo Proto-Polynesian and PPn. I felt this would be a
> sufficient indication of difference, and yet at the same time brief,
> succinct, and similar enough to existing conventions.
>
> Does anyone have any reactions to such a convention, or more importantly
any
> idea on what others might have used?
>
> Thanks,
>
> John Lynch
>
>
> "The past is not dead. It is not even past." (William Faulkner)
> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
>
> John Lynch
> Pro-VC and Director Pacific Languages Unit
> Emalus Campus - USP
> PMB 072
> Port Vila. Vanuatu.
> Phone: +678 22748.  Fax:  +678 22633
>
>
>
>
> --Boundary_(ID_FOsoyfDtB+6wNaT0bY0Rxg)
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> <TITLE>Proto-Dialect chains</TITLE>
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>
> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Andrew Pawley and I hav=
> e been having a little</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">private</=
> FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> e-discussion, but felt it might b=
> e</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">better</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FA=
> CE=3D"Arial"> to come on-</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">list</F=
> ONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> to get a wider spread</FONT> <FONT=
>  SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">of</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> idea=
> s.</FONT></P>
>
> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The query relates to th=
> e</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">nomenclature</FONT><FONT SIZE=
> =3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"></FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">used</FONT>=
> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> for protolanguages and families as opp=
> osed to proto-dialect chains and linkages. One</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
> FACE=3D"Arial">might</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> refer to th=
> e Polynesian subgroup, for example, and to</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=
> =3D"Arial">Proto-</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Polynesian</FON=
> T><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">, as</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Ar=
> ial">implying</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> a (fairly) homogen=
> eous and</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">uniform</FONT><FONT SIZ=
> E=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> single ancestral language. Forms labelled PPn *=
> xyz would thus</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">represent</FONT><=
> FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> forms which, to the best of</FONT> <FON=
> T SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">our</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"></F=
> ONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">knowledge</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAC=
> E=3D"Arial">, were part of that</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">=
> protolanguage</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">.</FONT></P>
>
> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">My concern is with dial=
> ect-chains. There was probably a Southern Oceanic</FONT> <FONT SIZE=
> =3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">linkage</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">, an =
> dialect-chain ancestral to the languages of Vanuatu and New Caledonia=
> . To use the same nomenclature for this proto-dialect chain</FONT> <F=
> ONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">-</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> i.=
> e.,</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Proto-</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
> FACE=3D"Arial">Southern</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> Oceanic<=
> /FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"></FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Ar=
> ial">-</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> tends to imply that it is=
> </FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">of</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=
> =3D"Arial"> the same</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">nature</FON=
> T><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> as a more</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=
> =3D"Arial">homogeneous</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"></FONT> <F=
> ONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">protolanguage</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=
> =3D"Arial">, which it is not.</FONT></P>
>
> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Nevertheless, it seems =
> to me that it</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">would</FONT><FONT =
> SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> be useful to have some fairly tight and neat=
>  way of referring to such</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">ancest=
> ors</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">, and not by some long-winded=
>  expression like</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">"</FONT><FONT S=
> IZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Ancestral Southern Oceanic dialect-chain</FONT=
> ><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">"</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">=
>  or some</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">such</FONT><FONT SIZE=
> =3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">, especially</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"=
> >since</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> one can legitimately also=
>  make</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">reconstructions</FONT><FON=
> T SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> for such a</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"A=
> rial">"</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">language</FONT><FONT SIZE=
> =3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">"</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">, with the =
> proviso that they are less secure and were probably</FONT> <FONT SIZE=
> =3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">more</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"></FONT> =
> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">subject</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Ar=
> ial"> to</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">internal</FONT><FONT SI=
> ZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> variation than those made for</FONT> <FONT SIZ=
> E=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">protolanguages</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Aria=
> l">.</FONT></P>
>
> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">My suggestion to</FONT>=
>  <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Andy</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Aria=
> l"> was to use lower-case p: proto-</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Aria=
> l">Southern</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> Oceanic and pSOc as =
> opposed tpo Proto-Polynesian and PPn. I felt this would be a sufficie=
> nt indication of</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> difference, and=
>  yet at the same time brief,</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">suc=
> cinct</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">, and</FONT> <FONT SIZE=
> =3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">similar</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> enou=
> gh to existing conventions.</FONT></P>
>
> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Does anyone have any re=
> actions to</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">such</FONT><FONT SIZE=
> =3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> a</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">conventio=
> n</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">, or more importantly any idea =
> on what others might have used?</FONT></P>
>
> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Thanks,</FONT></P>
>
> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">John Lynch</FONT></P>
>
> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"></FONT> </P>
>
> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><A NAME=3D"_MailAutoSig"></A></P>
>
> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><I><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">&q=
> uot;The past is not dead. It is not even past." (William Faulkne=
> r)</FONT></I></P>
>
> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX=
> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX</FONT></P>
>
> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">John Lynch</FONT></P>
>
> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Pro-VC and Director Pac=
> ific Languages Unit</FONT></P>
>
> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Emalus Campus - USP</FO=
> NT></P>
>
> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">PMB 072</FONT></P>
>
> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Port Vila. Vanuatu.</FO=
> NT></P>
>
> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Phone: +678 22748.&nbsp=
> ; Fax:  +678 22633</FONT></P>
> <BR>
>
> <P ALIGN=3DLEFT></P>
>
> </BODY>
> </HTML>
>
> --Boundary_(ID_FOsoyfDtB+6wNaT0bY0Rxg)--
>


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