Arabic-L:GEN:Persian or Farsi responses

[Dilworth Parkinson]

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Arabic-L: Wed 16 Aug 2006
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1) Subject:Persian or Farsi response
2) Subject:Persian or Farsi response
3) Subject:Persian or Farsi response
4) Subject:Persian or Farsi response
5) Subject:Persian or Farsi response

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1)
Date: 16 Aug 2006
From:"Lampe, Gerald" <glampe at nflc.org>
Subject:Persian or Farsi response

The correct word in English is "Persian." "Farsi" is the Persian word
for Persian. This issue is somewhat complicated by the fact that some
folks in the government refer to "Persian Farsi," meaning the Persian
spoken in Iran as opposed to variants of Persian spoken in other
countries, Dari and Tajik.

Gerald E. Lampe, Ph.D.

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2)
Date: 16 Aug 2006
From:Alex Bellem <alex at bellem-hussein.demon.co.uk>
Subject:Persian or Farsi response

Greetings.

It seems to me that it comes down to the political (non-)correctness of
generally nativising or Anglicising words, and which term is adopted
depends on how far one is happy to accept nativisation / Anglicisation
or not. So if we insist on 'Farsi' then shouldn't we insist also on
'TUrkCe' or 'Espagnol' or 'Hellenic', and so on? Since it is accepted in
linguistics as natural that non-native words are adapted to conform to
the phonology of the borrowing language (perhaps via an intermediate
'conveyor' language), can we object to 'Persian' on linguistic grounds?

So at the end of the day, I suppose that perhaps the context of use
should be the deciding factor. I tend to use 'Farsi' with colleagues and
speakers of ME languages, but I would probably use 'Persian' with people
outside that context. Hasn't anyone voted for Irani / Iranian yet?!

Best,
Alex.

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3)
Date: 16 Aug 2006
From:Franklin Lewis <flewis at uchicago.edu>
Subject:Persian or Farsi response
Persian is the conventional term in English, as in

most European languages (persidskoi, persisch,

perse, etc.), going back to the time of Herodotus, or

earlier. Ironically, both words derive ultimately from the

name of the southern province of Pars, where the

Achaemenids had their capital.  This of course became

"Fars" in the Arabic alphabet, for lack of the phoneme

"p."

      The term "Farsi"  began to creep into English in

the 1960s, mostly as a result of foreigners in Iran

hearing it from native-speakers who, presumably,

did not know English well enough to know that the

English name of their language had always been

Persian.  The media has accelerated and canonized

that process with the spread of the Iranian diaspora

around the English-speaking world, especially,

perhaps in North America.

      As there is no such thing as Farsi carpets, Farsi

literature, Farsi cats, Farsi food, etc., it seems rather

ridiculous to use this English neologism as

a general adjective for the language.  The Persian

language is spoken in Iran, Afghanistan and Tajikistan

as an official  language.  Though the native nomenclature

for it differs in many contexts (Tajiks often call their

language "Tojiki,"  Afghans often use "Dari", whereas

Iranians typically use "Farsi"), the language is one, just as

the various varieties of world English are varieties

of one English, and not primarily "Scottish," "Australian,"

"American" or Anglo-South Asian.  The most salient difference

between the varieties of Persian is that the Tajiks have,

since WWII, used the Cyrillic alphabet to write Persian (and

a decade or so before that, they had converted to the Latin

alphabet).

     Of course, with the advent of European imperialism and the

emergence of the distinct modern  national states of Afghanistan,

Iran and Tajikistan, each with their own separate school system

and political history (and often language academy), the literary

Persian language has perhaps become less homogenous than

it was before the 18th century all the way from the Balkans to

Bengal.  Nevertheless, recent years have seen important trends

in the opposite direction, such as news programs in Persian

prepared by and aimed at a multi-national Persian-speaking

audience (e.g., the Persian Services of the BBC and of

Radio France; this in stark contrast to US Persian services -

RFE/RL and VOA], which divide their broadcasts along the

three national varieties of Persian, and call them Dari. Tajik and

"Persian" - the latter recently adopted in place of its former name

"Farsi" at the request of listeners and the personnel of the radio

program).  Since independence from the Soviet Union, Tajikistan has

also  been discussing a return to the Arabic script, but to my knowledge

no serious attempt has yet been undertaken.

        Therefore, in certain technical contexts, where one wishes to

distinguish the varieties / dialects of Persian, one might reasonably

use "Farsi," "Tajiki," and "Dari" (though there are other valid ways to

divide the dialects of Persian, a conventional one being "Khorasani,"

which can include north eastern Iran, western Afghanistan and

Tajikistan, so that the division of the language into "national"

varieties is not necessarily the most linguistically satisfactory

categorization of Persian).  Outside of such a precise linguistic

context, however, "farsi" is quite an unnecessary (one might even

venture to say uneducated) usage, except where considerations

of nationalism or (in the case of Tajik Persian) script are

paramount.

    I believe the above more or less reflects the opinion of the great

majority of Persianists in academia (one finds no reputable grammars

of "Farsi," or histories of "Farsi" literature, or classes in "Farsi"

at major English-speaking universities).  The issue has been

discussed frequently on email lists, such as Adabiyat, and

variouis print fora.


yrs, Franklin Lewis



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4)
Date: 16 Aug 2006
From:Dan Parvaz <dparvaz at mac.com>
Subject:Persian or Farsi response

Po-TAY-to, po-TAH-to...

This is a tired terminological debate which serves no real purpose.  
Every now and then, someone with this particular bee in his (or her,  
but it usually seems to be some guy) bonnet decides to that because  
"Farsi" is simply Persian for "Persian", that logic dictates we use  
the English term. "We don't study 'Arabi' or 'Ivrit'," goes the  
litany, "so why do we use 'Farsi'?"

I know this is an Arabic list, but... logic, shmogic. It's a useful  
terminological distinction when discussing the differences between  
Persian as spoken in Iran (particularly the Tehran dialect), Persian  
as spoken in Afghanistan (especially Kabul), and Persian as spoken in  
Tajikistan. They're all "Persian", but the labels "Farsi,"  
"Dari" (another Persian word no one seems to object to), and "Tajiki"  
are succinct and accepted more or less everywhere to highlight the  
very real differences between the lects.

That said, using one term or the other is probably a useful  
shibboleth: it separates those with spare time on their hands from  
those who don't.

Cheers,

-Dan.

PS: Hasn't anyone brought up the whole Parsi/Farsi issue? It's just  
as vital.

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4)
Date: 16 Aug 2006
From:BearMeiser at aol.com
Subject:Persian or Farsi response

Qiyaasan, "Persian" is the correct name for the language in English.  
Just as we call the language spoken in France "French" and not  
"Francais," and the language spoken in Spain "Spanish" and not  
"Espanol," so we should call the language spoken in Iran by its  
English name when speaking English.

Samaa'an, however, it seems to be very common practice amongst  
Persian speakers in the United States to call their language "Farsi"  
when they are speaking English, and not "Persian." Thus, since this  
is a common usage, "Farsi" is also correct.

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End of Arabic-L:  16 Aug 2006