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Arabic-L: Fri 06 Apr 2007
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-------------------------Directory------------------------------------
1) Subject:tNimsa (and Franks)
2) Subject: Nimsa
3) Subject: Nimsa
4) Subject: Nimsa
5) Subject: Nimsa
6) Subject: Nimsa
7) Subject: Nimsa
-------------------------Messages-----------------------------------
1)
Date: 06 Apr 2007
From:Klaus Lagally <lagally at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>
Subject:Nimsa (and Franks)
The Franks were (and still are) a Germanic tribe, still settling in
central
germany. They conquered the former Roman empire around 700 AD; their
most
famous ruler was Charlemagne, coronated in Rome in 800 AD. The Franks'
empire was divided up by his descendants into three parts: Germany,
Lorraine,
and France (this part kept the name). Lorraine was later joined to
France,
Germany took its own way. Later the crusades started in France, but took
participants all over Europe. The common language of the crusaders was
ancient French, thus presumably the term 'franji' in Arabic.
'Nemec' is the Czech term for German. The Czech came under German rule
early; when Austria separated from the (German) 'Holy Roman Empire',
they
kept domination of the Czechs. Thus the term 'nemec' got narrowed to
mean
Austrian in political context; otherwise still German in general. I have
no idea why the Arabs took 'nimsawi' to mean Austrian, not German in
general.
This info is from memory, and may be inaccurate :-(
Klaus
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2)
Date: 06 Apr 2007
From:robert.langer at ori.uni-heidelberg.de
Subject:Nimsa
Namsa most probably comes via Ottoman Turkish (nemCe for German/
Austrian;
nemCe devleti = Austrian Empire) into Arabic. Originally it is a slavic
ethnonym for German speeking persons in general as opposed to
speakers of
slavic or roman languages; e. g. nemec in Czech. To my knowledge (not
being a
slavicist) its original semantics are something such as: somebody who
is not
able to speak (properly) = somebody who is not able to speak (the slavic
language) properly. Just as for the old Greeks the non-Greek speakers
were
'mumblers' = barbaroi.
Best,
Robert Langer
Islamic Studies
Heidelberg University
Germany
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3)
Date: 06 Apr 2007
From:<depintouk at yahoo.com>
Subject:Nimsa
The Arabic word (an-) nimsaa for “Austria” (< latin Auster "south
wind". Cf. German "Österreich", which means "eastern realm") comes
from a Slavic root meaning "mute", "dumb", i.e., metaphorically,
"those who do not speak our language". (cf. the word "Welsh" in
English, which etymologically is a disparaging term deriving from an
ancient Germanic word "wealas", or "foreigner, stranger". They call
themselves "Cymry", or "fellow conoutrymen"). Observe the words for
“German” in the main representative languages of the Slavic branch
(excepting Hungarian):
Niemcy – Polish
Nemecko – Slovak
Německo – Czech
(немецкий) Nemetski – Russian, but note that the country is
Германия (Germania)
Nemčija - Slovene
Németország - Hungarian
But, the borrowing occurred indirectly, i.e., via Ottoman Turkish
(Osmanlica), which used the word “Nemse” for the country, and
“Nemçe” for its inhabitants. Note that in Modern Turkish the
“westernized” version is used: “Avusturya”.
Hope this helps.
Marco de Pinto
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4)
Date: 06 Apr 2007
From:Samia Montasser <montasser at un.org>
Subject:Nimsa
I have read in a book years ago that the word comes from Turkish.
When the Ottomans invaded Austria, there was no response at all
and the leader then said " This country (or city) must be (nam) meaning
(asleep) and (sah) meaning (does not hear)
The name became "namsah" pronounced "Nemsaa" in Arabic.
Regards,
Samia
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5)
Date: 06 Apr 2007
From:Samia Montasser <montasser at un.org>
Subject:Nimsa
Dear all,
I checked with Turkish colleagues about the truth of the explanantion of
the origin of "Nemsaa"
that I sent before. My response before "I read in a book years ago
that it
came after the Ottomans
invaded Austria easily. That the leader then said "This country is
(naam)
sleeeping
and (sah) does not hear. So it became the name in Turkish and Arabic
only.
Dear Samia,
Fatih forwarded your e-mail to me to find an answer. Here is what I
found;
"Al-namsah" is an arabisized word for "Nemecko" - a Slavic word which in
Czech, Slovak and a couple of other Slavic languages means Germany. The
story in your e-mail just sounds like folklore to me. A lot of of the
Turkish commanders of that time knew the Slavic and Eastern European
languages. It's more likely that they converted the Slavic word into
Arabic.
I hope it was useful.
Regards.
Serhat
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6)
Date: 06 Apr 2007
From: "ELKASSAB, bilal" <bilal.ELKASSAB at upu.int>
Subject:Nimsa
[This is a response to #5]
this answer sounds more logical, but it is true that language
evolution is not always logical, but with the few words of Russian i
know, Nemets stand for Germans , so who knows? One thing is sure, I
thank a lot for your effort.
best regards
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7)
Date: 06 Apr 2007
From: "Marco Hamam" <marco.hamam at poste.it>
Subject:Nimsa
Hi Bilal!! I don't have the answer but what I can tell you is that in
many east-european languages the word GERMANY is said in a way very
similar to "(an-)NIMSA":
Croatian: Njemacka
Hungarian: Németország
Czech: Nemecko
Upper Sorbian (Saxony, Germany, similar to Czech): Nemska
Polish: Niemcy
Serbian: Nemacka
Consider that GERMANY is relatively recent. It did not exist untill
1871. The "German Confederation", born at the 1815 Vienna Congress,
included Prussia and Austria too.
Did the word pass to Arabic from one of these languages through
ottoman Turkish? I think so. But I would like to hear others' opinion
too.
Regards,
Marco Hamam
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End of Arabic-L: 06 Apr 2007
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