Andrew Carnie: Irish Lenition & Orthographic Depth

[Elizabeth J. Pyatt]

From: Andrew Carnie <carnie at linguistlist.org>
Reply-To: carnie at linguistlist.org
To: The Celtic Linguistics List <CELTLING at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Dorothy (Doireann) Milne: Irish Lenition & Orthographic Depth


Hi Brian,

I too have some brief comments. Actually I'm surprised that the <h> should
be such a stumbling block, given the fact that English uses diagraphs all
the time, especially <ph> and <th>. I personally had more problem, when I
was learning, to know which vowels were pronounced, which vowels were there to
indicate broad/slender, and which vowels were both. This was compounded
by the fact that the broad/slender pronunciation differences are changed by
which vowel is *actually* pronounced. (eg. a /b/ before a back vowel is [b],
but before a high front vowel is [bw], similarly a /b'/ before a back vowel
is a [bj] but before a front vowel is [b]. This means that depending upon
context the sequence <be> can be pronounced either with a [b] or a [bj]
quality. That took me forever to learn.

Best,

AC
>
>
>
>On Mon, 14 Apr 2003, Elizabeth J. Pyatt wrote:
>
>>  >From: Dorothy Milne <dmilne at morgan.ucs.mun.ca>
>>  >X-Sender: dmilne at plato.ucs.mun.ca
>>  >To: CELTLING at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
>>  >Subject: Brian Doyle's project: Irish Lenition & Orthographic Depth
>>
>>  Dear Brian -
>>
>>     This is an interesting project.
>>     I have a few comments below ...
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >>  Modern Irish orthography is often described as simplified. However,
>>  >>  considering the one-to-one grapheme/phoneme principle in the
>>Orthographic
>>  >>  Depth Hypothesis, it strikes me that the method of
>>representing lenition in
>>  >>  modern Irish orthography (i.e., a posterior H) might not be as
>>"simple" as
>>  >>  the traditional method of the "buailte" or dot. Furthermore,
>>certain lenited
>>  >>  consonants (e.g., ch, sh, th) might be more liable to transfer
>>of (English)
>>  >>  L1 grapheme/phoneme correspondences than their traditional
>>correspondents.
>>  >
>>      This is an interesting theory to test.  It makes intuitive sense.
>>
>>      One countervailing point I might mention is that I, in fact, have
>>      slightly _more_ trouble reading the old texts with the buailte ...
>>      partly because I learned the modern h-system first, but also because
>>      my eye seems to _miss_ the little dot a lot ... it's as if the
>>      buailte-dot is too subtle a signal for my eye to pick up .. whereas
>>      the  -h- is more easily seen.
>>
>>      Perhaps if a brand-new learner were taught this to begin with the
>>      dot would be more readily seen ... though one of the things I have
>>      noticed with my students is that it helps to have a really obvious
>>      _fada_  to get students to note the difference between an -i-
>>      and a -i/- ... they just don't see the accent. So, this is an
>>      effect you might want to test for.  Make the buailte's really
>>      obvious (?).
>>
>>
>>  >>  Therefore, my proposal involves an experiment with two subject
>>groups of L2
>>  >>  Irish learners with no previous background in Irish. The
>>control group would
>>  >>  be instructed with materials using modern Irish orthography.
>>The experiment
>>  >>  group with materials using modern (i.e., simplified) spelling but with
>>  >>  lenition represented by the dot.
>>  >
>>      I'm glad you make this point - since a large part of the difficulty
>>      that people have in going from the old to the new script (or vice
>>      versa) is all those letters that got taken out of the words during
>>      spelling reform!
>>  >
>>  >>  At the end of the instruction period (as
>>  >>  yet undetermined), a proficiency test designed to measure low-level,
>>  >>  intraword processing would be administered and a quantitative analysis
>>  >>  performed.
>>  >
>>      What do you mean by 'intraword processing' and how would you test it?
>>
>>       Do you mean seeing if the students are _pronouncing_ the consonant
>>       correctly (lenited vs base form .. i.e.  b-dot as a 'w' or as a 'v'
>>       rather than as a 'b'  ???   or 'b-dot a' as a 'w'  and
>>       'b-dot e' as a 'v' ??
>>
>>       If so, would you test them orally, or ask them to write down the
>>       sound of the consonant ?
>>
>>       It is, of course, much harder for a student to master the
>>       pronunciation in an _oral_ test than in a written test ... the
>>       latter giving a person more time to figure out alternatives,
>>       block out unlikelies, play a probabilities game.
>>
>>       Also - it might vary in how you taught this. If you taught it
>>       orally - with phonetic cue cards, for example - you might find
>>       the opposite - that the oral test would work better for the
>>       students.
>>
>>       I have done quite a bit of teaching/testing in this area with my
>>       students.  It probably shouldn't surprise me but it does .. how
>>       slowly the students master these differences, even with teaching
>>       directed to it.
>>  >
>>  >>  I'd be curious to hear feedback on these ideas, as well as recommended
>>  >>  literature, from those who are so inclined. Although this is only a term
>>  >>  project, my hope would be to develop this into a proposal for a master's
>>  >>  thesis.
>>  >
>>       It is a very interesting project and I wish you well with it.
>>
>>       A related problem is one that I have been working on - and I gave
>>       two papers on it at conferences last year ... my question is how to
>>       best teach the spelling system ... and do methods that are based on
>>       linguistic principles more successful than rote learning. I have
>>       developed teaching materials on this.
>>
>>       It is interesting that so few Irish/Scottish Gaelic teachers have
>>       worked on this, since learning the orthography is such a stumbling
>>       block for students, especially adult learners,
>>
>>       Best wishes,        Doireann
>>                           Memorial University
>>                           St.John's, NL
>>
>>  --
>>  o.o.o.o.o.o.o.o.o.o
>>
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>
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Elizabeth J. Pyatt, Ph.D.
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