hiding tiers and Kideval
Brian MacWhinney
macw at cmu.edu
Sun Jan 20 22:16:33 UTC 2013
If you want to actually remove all the tiers, just use kwal and decide what tiers to include or exclude using the "Tiers" dialog.
I'll check with Leonid tomorrow about the menu option question for KIDEVAL
--Brian
On Jan 20, 2013, at 5:10 PM, Nan Bernstein Ratner <nratner at umd.edu> wrote:
> You have to type kideval in the pc version I just pulled down - it's not a menu item. I will try what you suggest, but will the hidden tiers say hidden on save? The idea is to give students the files without the tiers.
> N
>
>
> Nan Bernstein Ratner
> Professor and Chairman
> Faculty, Neuroscience and Cognitive Sciences Program (NACS)
> Participating Faculty, Language Sciences; Developmental Science Field Committee
>
> Department of Hearing and Speech Sciences
> 0100 Lefrak Hall
> University of Maryland
> College Park, MD 20742
> 301-405-4217; 301-314-2023 (FAX)
> http://www.hesp.umd.edu/facultyprofile/Bernstein%20Ratner/Nan
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: chibolts at googlegroups.com [mailto:chibolts at googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian MacWhinney
> Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 4:58 PM
> To: chibolts at googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: hiding tiers and Kideval
>
> Dear Nan,
>
> Why not use the 0hide.cut file located in the CLAN/lib folder? You just decide what you want to hide and CLAN will then always hide those tiers until you change it.
>
> KIDEVAL is alive and well. Give it a spin.
>
> --Brian MacW
>
> On Jan 20, 2013, at 1:31 PM, Nan Bernstein Ratner <nratner at umd.edu> wrote:
>
>> A belated happy new year to all, as I prep my second new class of the
>> year :-( I'd like to use some old research files that are extensively annotated for an child language class assignment that will have them practice hand computation of MLU and some other variables (for later comparison to eval printout). Is there any way to "batch" the command to hide tiers, or will I need to do this separately 30 some-odd times?
>>
>> Also, with the PC version of CLAN I downloaded today, I don't see a Kideval program, although I do see a lib directory. While traveling, I had seen some discussion that implied a KidEval program had been released.
>>
>> Nan
>>
>>
>>
>> Nan Bernstein Ratner
>> Professor and Chairman
>> Faculty, Neuroscience and Cognitive Sciences Program (NACS)
>> Participating Faculty, Language Sciences; Developmental Science Field
>> Committee
>>
>> Department of Hearing and Speech Sciences
>> 0100 Lefrak Hall
>> University of Maryland
>> College Park, MD 20742
>> 301-405-4217; 301-314-2023 (FAX)
>> http://www.hesp.umd.edu/facultyprofile/Bernstein%20Ratner/Nan
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: chibolts at googlegroups.com [mailto:chibolts at googlegroups.com] On
>> Behalf Of Leonid Spektor
>> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 3:25 PM
>> To: chibolts at googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: Clauses per utterance with EVAL
>>
>> Susanne,
>>
>> Specifying DSS rules file name is a new feature just added to KIDEVAL. The "eng.cut" language script file located in folder "clan/lib/kideval", that comes with the latest CLAN distribution, has the following first line:
>>
>> dss +le
>>
>> This line tells KIDEVAL and DSS which language and DSS rules file to use. The +le means English language and "rules.cut" file. The +lj means Japanese language and "rulesjp.cut" file. If you want to specify DSS rules file name other than "rules.cut" or "rulesjp.cut", then use +d option in addition to +l option. Those options functions the same way as corresponding options you could specify on command line when running DSS command. You can either change above line to the following line for Japanese data:
>>
>> dss +lj
>>
>> Or you can make a copy of "eng.cut" language script file and call it, for example "jp.cut", then change the first line in the new file to "dss +lj". To run KIDEVAL with new language script file "jp.cut" use command:
>>
>> kideval -ljp *.cha
>>
>> KIDEVAL searches folder "clan/lib/kideval" for language script files. New CLAN is on childes web site.
>>
>> Leonid.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 10, 2013, at 23:50, smiyata at me.com wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Brian,
>>> this is really convenient! I've tried it out with Japanese files (with %mor info), and it works fine.
>>> One question: how is KIDEVAL linked to DSS?
>>> Is there any option to indicate dssrulesjp.cut instead of dss.cut ?
>>> Susanne
>>>
>>> On 2013/01/11, at 6:16, Nicole Tracy-Ventura <nicole.tracy.ventura at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Brian,
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for the information about KIDEVAL. Indeed what EVAL does
>>>> is very exciting, for us SLA folks too.
>>>>
>>>> It seems every time I look in the CLAN manual I discover some new
>>>> programs so thank you and Leonid for all your hard work.
>>>>
>>>> Nicole
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 6:18 PM, Brian MacWhinney <macw at cmu.edu> wrote:
>>>>> Dear CHIBolts and Nicole,
>>>>> The EVAL program was designed to run on the English AphasiaBank files. It was not designed to work with languages other than English, although variant forms could eventually be programmed. Once EVAL became available, people became quite excited about the possibility of using it with child language files. So, Leonid has been working over the last 3 months to design a variant of EVAL called KIDEVAL which is now included the most recent version of CLAN. KIDEVAL is so new that I haven't even been able to test it myself yet. However, because KIDEVAL uses an external configuration file, it may be easier to get it to work with %mor codes from languages other than English. In any case, I would recommend using KIDEVAL rather than EVAL for child language data or for non-English data generally.
>>>>> We are working right now on all of these issues, but people need to realize that not all aspects of KIDEVAL will be working fully right now.
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Brian MacWhinney
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 10, 2013, at 9:49 AM, Nicole Tracy-Ventura <nicole.tracy.ventura at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just tried running EVAL with some files in Spanish and have a
>>>>>> similar problem. In the case with Spanish, the results say that
>>>>>> there are 0 verbs. I assume this is because the tag in Spanish
>>>>>> does not start with v| but instead looks like this:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> vpres|trata-3S&PRES
>>>>>> vpret|i-3S&PRET
>>>>>> vcond|pode-13S&COND
>>>>>> v:aux|habe-3S&PRES
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any thoughts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>> Nicole Tracy-Ventura
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 10:28 PM, Mcmanus K. <K.McManus at soton.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> Thanks for clearing that up Brian. I wasn't aware EVAL made those exclusions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kevin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Dr Kevin McManus
>>>>>>> Department of Modern Languages
>>>>>>> University of Southampton
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> tel: +44 (0) 23 8059 3970
>>>>>>> http://www.soton.ac.uk/ml/about/staff/km2m10.page
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Project website: http://langsnap.soton.ac.uk/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>>>> From: chibolts at googlegroups.com [chibolts at googlegroups.com] on
>>>>>>> behalf of Brian MacWhinney [macw at cmu.edu]
>>>>>>> Sent: 07 January 2013 22:09
>>>>>>> To: chibolts at googlegroups.com
>>>>>>> Cc: Leonid Spektor
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Clauses per utterance with EVAL
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Kevin,
>>>>>>> You are getting the number 14 because EVAL is ignoring v:aux, v:exist, and v:poss. The remaining forms with v| all add up to 14.
>>>>>>> The fact that you also get 14 from your FREQ command is basically an accident.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --Brian
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jan 7, 2013, at 4:46 PM, "Mcmanus K." <K.McManus at soton.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Leonid
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks so much for looking into this. I re-ran this on a small (French) file just to double check. It's quite possible I've made an obvious error, so I'll take you through my working.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So I ran EVAL on the (.mor.pst.cex) file and it showed me the following:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Utts: 17
>>>>>>>> Verbs: 14
>>>>>>>> Clause/Utt: 0.824
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To double check this, I ran a search on all the verbs in the file (freq %mor +s@"|v*" C121d*.mor.pst.cex +u) and it tells me the following:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From file <C:\USERS\KEVIN\DESKTOP\C121dOB.mor.pst.cex>
>>>>>>>> Speaker: *121:
>>>>>>>> 1 v:aux|avoir&PRES&3SV
>>>>>>>> 1 v:aux|être&PRES&3SV
>>>>>>>> 1 v:exist|être&IMPF&3PV
>>>>>>>> 2 v:poss|avoir&PRES&3SV
>>>>>>>> 1 v|arriver-PP-_MASC
>>>>>>>> 4 v|chercher-PRES-_3SV
>>>>>>>> 1 v|dormir-PRES-3SV
>>>>>>>> 2 v|jouer-PRES-_3SV
>>>>>>>> 1 v|laisser-PRES-_3SV
>>>>>>>> 1 v|lire-PRES-_3SV
>>>>>>>> 1 v|marcher-PRES-_3SV
>>>>>>>> 1 v|perdre-PP-_MASC
>>>>>>>> 1 v|rentrer-PRES-_3PV
>>>>>>>> 1 v|trouver-PRES-_3SV
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>> 14 Total number of different item types used
>>>>>>>> 19 Total number of items (tokens)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As the French Passé Composé (past tense form) is formed of an aux + pp, when you take away the two PP from this list you get 17 tokens. When I count the Vs manually I also get 17. So the 14 verbs result from EVAL would appear to match the total number of different verb types, not tokens?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I hope that makes sense.
>>>>>>>> All the best
>>>>>>>> Kevin
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Dr Kevin McManus
>>>>>>>> Department of Modern Languages
>>>>>>>> University of Southampton
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> tel: +44 (0) 23 8059 3970
>>>>>>>> http://www.soton.ac.uk/ml/about/staff/km2m10.page
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Project website: http://langsnap.soton.ac.uk/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>>>>> From: chibolts at googlegroups.com [chibolts at googlegroups.com] on
>>>>>>>> behalf of Leonid Spektor [spektor at andrew.cmu.edu]
>>>>>>>> Sent: 07 January 2013 17:18
>>>>>>>> To: chibolts at googlegroups.com
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Clauses per utterance with EVAL
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kevin,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I had to talk to more informed on this subject people than me before I could answer your question and EVAL definitely counts ratio of tokens per utterances. Just to make sure that I am talking about the same thing that you are, here is sample CHAT file:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *CHI: they run .
>>>>>>>> %mor: pro:sub|they v|run .
>>>>>>>> *CHI: they run .
>>>>>>>> %mor: pro:sub|they v|run .
>>>>>>>> *CHI: they run .
>>>>>>>> %mor: pro:sub|they v|run .
>>>>>>>> *CHI: he is running .
>>>>>>>> %mor: pro:sub|he aux|be&3S part|run-PROG .
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> which will produce clause/utterances result equal to 1. If EVAL was counting verb types or verb types lemmas, then the result would have been equal to 0.5 or 0.25.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> May I ask what leads you to believe that EVAL counts verb types (not tokens)?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Leonid.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jan 6, 2013, at 14:43, Mcmanus K. wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear all
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've been trying to calculate the average number of clauses per utterance using EVAL. When I run this it seems to work fine, but EVAL appears to use verb types (not tokens) to calculate this. I'd like to calculate the average number of clauses per utterance using verb tokens (not types). Is there a way I can do this? Or maybe a different command is the answer?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Any feedback or advice would be greatly appreciated.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> All the best
>>>>>>>>> Kevin
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Dr Kevin McManus
>>>>>>>>> Research Fellow in French Applied Linguistics Modern Languages
>>>>>>>>> University of Southampton
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> tel: +44 (0) 23 8059 3970
>>>>>>>>> http://www.soton.ac.uk/ml/about/staff/km2m10.page
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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