A failure of communication

[Nadja Adolf]

> Date:    Fri, 29 Nov 2002 12:53:43 +0100
> From:    Henry Kammler
> <H.Kammler at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE>
> Subject: Access / Endangerment / Future of CJ
>
> Dear listers,
>
> through the recent discussions it becomes clear
> again that there are as many
> motivations and approaches as there are individuals
> involved in CJ. When people
> from different backgrounds and fields come together
> they have to find a common
> language which confronts all of them with unforeseen
> difficulties. In a
> goodwill-atmosphere one should at first try to avoid
> generalizations about
> perceived "groups" like e.g. linguists vs.
> non-linguists. Some of the
> frustrations that Nadja mentioned directly stem from
> what *individuals* in a
> particular situation said or did and should be taken
> as that.

Thank you, Herr Doktor Kammler, this is a good
insight. Individuals are not, however, completely
distinct from their roles, both members of the upper
classes and academics have a tendency to view others
as having slightly less "real" existence - the upper
classes see beasts of burden and functionaries - the
academics see laboratory experiments. However, anyone
can act like a jerk - I myself have occasionally been
known to do so. B^)

> In GR, the practical possibility of
> learning/teaching CJ and the motivational
> base for it seems to be quite different from
> anywhere else. Who is to blame
> when there are no CJ classes outside GR? (Should it
> be an issue of blaming at
> all?) There are no teachers, just students, so its
> the students that should
> find ways to come together and learn from what's
> available.

This would not be an issue if some of those who
insisted that GR is the "gold standard" did not behave
in a judgemental and contemptuous manner towards those
who speak other dialects. Being constantly corrected
on one's diction is tireseome, especially when the
corrections tend to "drift" over time.

I see it as counterproductive to insist on focussing
on one dialect and having all activities center on
that dialect while not providing opportunities for
speakers of different dialects to learn that dialect.
It becomes ludicrous when speakers of other dialects
suggest organizing opportunities to practice their
knowledge - and are accused of somehow "dividing the
effort" tp preserve CJ - since they are NOT given any
opportunity to participate in the alleged effort to
preserve the language, but are told to be "patient."

Worse is the abusive email that some have received
after posting stories or letters. A milder example was
recently forwarded to the moderator.

Unfortunately, the claim of "gold standard" has been
made while no learning opportunities are provided to
those who do not reside in the immediate area. And
when those who do speak other dialects come to the
Conference at GR there is little opportunity for
study, and criticism on word usage that differs from
GR.

And this would *NOT* be a problem if these same
individuals did not first criticize or belittle any
usage of non-GR form - and then turn around and insist
that to create a separate venue for the non-GR
speakers is somehow *divisive.*

It need not be - but to provide opportunities for
other speakers at least until such time as the GR
format is available to others is a way to help
preserve *other* forms of CJ. There is not enough of a
population base to preserve the language in any form
solely at GR.

> And as Jeff has pointed out, there is quite a bit
> available on the net. I think
> someone who has thoroughly gone through the Melville
> Jacobs collection of texts
> (there should be no problem to exchange photocopies)
> will already have a good
> working command of CJ.

Ah, but where does one obtain these photocopies? And
at what price?

> As CJ has been a second language for most of its
> speakers most of the time, its
> survival will only be as a second language with
> limited degrees of fluency
> among its speakers (and also this has always been
> the case). As well as there
> is no objective criteria for "fluency" in any
> "natural" language, there is none
> for CJ either. (Same goes for the highly problematic
> notion of "correctness".)

I agree with this. But this has been - and will
continue to be an issue with some on this list. Me?
I'd like to learn GR to go along with what I already
speak.

There is more than one dialect. If I encounter someone
from Eastern Washington or Eastern Oregon, they and I
generally sound pretty much the same. Over there we
say tLLLLahowya instead of Laxayum - and the "wet L"
is more of a "tLLLL" and the hard "ch" is more of an
explosive "tSCH" a lot of the time.

> The /kwitshadi/-example reminds me of what is
> happening all over in native
> communities with endagered languages which become
> constested grounds of
> prestigious "traditional" knowledge. Additionally
> those who know much often
> unintentionally make others feel bad (apart from
> language being used in
> conflicts that are linked to other issues in those
> communities, which would
> lead too far here). Just one reminder: the remaining
> speakers and semi-speakers
> of all these languages are not *language teachers*
> and they themselves have
> gone through extremely traumatic classoom settings
> in their lives. Young people
> in these communities get easily discouraged in
> language learning because of all
> the issues they also have to deal with beneath the
> surface. CJ is one (somewhat
> special) case in a sea of dying languages. In all
> the cases I know of, language
> maintenance is bound to strongly devoted
> individuals, and with the devotion to
> CJ I see on this list I am optimistic that it will
> also be practiced in the
> future.
>
> The survival of a language is not so much an issue
> of the mere numbers of its
> speakers but more how closely knit the language
> community is (i.e. do people
> use it everyday not only at home but with friends
> and neighbors) and, above
> all, if a substantial number of children learn it as
> their *first* language.
> When we hear that less than a third of the Diné
> (Navajo) children learn Diné
> bizáád as first language, we know that survival is
> by no means sure.

I agree completely. And one issue that people aren't
looking at is that on average, more than half of
American Indians today marry non-American Indians -
and many marriages to other American Indians are
intertribal. This, to me, suggests that getting other
tribes in the region who were showing interest to
participate in CJ should be a priority - even if it
means that we accept a difference in dialects if there
isn't the ability to teach people.

> One serious constraint I see is that all CJ learners
> have a common language:
> English, for most even the mother tongue. There is
> no functional need for
> another language. When we look at Esperanto, it was
> born in multilingual
> central Europe under the impression of ever ongoing
> wars between nations. And
> it is the only artificial language that has had
> relative success (unlike e.g.
> Volapük, another such language at that time).
> Several listers have expressed
> their need for CJ expressions that match 21st
> century reality which means, new
> words (neologisms) have to come up somehow through
> an agreement between the
> users of the language -- i.e. like in Esperanto. And
> maybe this is the only way
> CJ can survive - which has two consequences:
> 1) practical use will deviate more and more from the
> historic CJ as documented
> in the sources
> 2) lacking a central language academy (unlike most
> national languages and even
> Esperanto) there is no authority deciding on how to
> use words. (Natural
> languages show spontaneous innovation all the time
> when it comes to everyday
> speech, language academies only serve as a
> legitimizing agency. As no one uses
> CJ sponateously, spontaneous innovation is less
> likely.)
> THIS LIST seems to be the best place to discuss all
> the issues involved (like
> new words), it is open and has no hierarchical
> structure.
>
> OK, that's my long 2 cents here.
> Henry K.
>

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