Indian Summer etc.

[Ros' Haruo]

I quite agree with Jeffrey that, as a kid, Indian Summer had positive,
romantic connotations, not at all derogatory, whatever its etymological
origins might have been. My recollections of "Indian summer" are completely
congruent with his.

Not so, however, the concept/term "Indian giver", which was just as
prevalent, and which was completely derogatory.

lilEnd
(writing from a part of the world where some tribal organizations and quite
a few elders have gone one record as *supporting retaining* "Indians" as a
name for high school sports teams in Issaquah and Seattle)

        ROS' Haruo / 204 N 39th / Seattle WA 98103 / Usono
    lilandbr at scn.org / lilandbr at hotmail.com / tel 206-633-2434
TTT-Himnaro Cigneta : http://www.geocities.com/cigneto/pretaj.html
Nove en La Lilandejo : http://www.geocities.com/lilandr/novaj.html
      ("la Esperantisto antauxe nomata Liland Brajant Ros'")





>From: Jeffrey Kopp <jeffkopp at ATTBI.COM>
>Reply-To: Jeffrey Kopp <jeffkopp at ATTBI.COM>
>To: CHINOOK at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
>Subject: Re: "Indian summer" & "Indian" as disparaging adjective
>Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 16:51:59 -0800
>
>Oh, good grief. While I  won't touch the hot-buttons about contemporary
>use or the historical validity of place-names incorporating "squaw" or
>"siwash," I feel a need to defend "Indian Summer" as harmless, if not
>innocent. When we were kids we thought of it as our last chance to get
>outside to play before the winter rains set in (it was forever raining
>in western Oregon in the early sixties); it therefore had a kind of
>romantic, wistful feel to us. We associated it with Halloween and
>(naively) imagined this mini-season was perhaps once the Natives' last
>chance to hunt, fish, gather, and otherwise prepare for winter. If it
>had a mocking origin, I think we can safely assume it's been completely
>forgotten by now.
>
>At the risk of sounding pedantic (but not having a degree, it's a rare
>indulgence), I might point out the pejoratives "Dutch"-whatever (cited
>as parallels on the Linguist List) were aimed by the English at the
>Germans (viz., "deutsche") centuries ago, and had nothing to do with The
>Netherlands.
>
>(The temporary renaming of "french fries" to "liberty fries" by some
>establishments during our recent Security Council squabble reminded me
>of the official WWI promotion of sauerkraut as "Liberty cabbage"; it was
>cheap and we had plenty of it, and the government feared popular
>avoidance resulting from the German name might adversely impact
>nutrition. Of course, "french fries" might better be called "sliced
>potatoes boiled in grease" as a public health measure; they aren't even
>French in origin--just the slicing method-- which is why it ain't even
>capitalized. Oh never mind I'm starting to ramble on the list again.......)
>
>Jeff


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