Is the word "Tuschohatchie" of CJ origin?

Thu Jan 5 04:10:22 UTC 2006

Thanks, Jonathan, for the information about The Mountaineers. I imagine 
that one of them (Beckly?) must have had at least some awareness of 
Southeastern languages and/or Southeastern placenames.

I've seen quite a few people around wearing Mazama sweatshirts with the 
CJ motto on them.

Thanks again,

Tom Larsen

Database Management and Catalog Librarian
Branford Price Millar Library
Portland State University
P.O. Box 1151
Portland, OR 97207-1151

phone: 503-725-8179
fax:   503-725-5799

email: larsent at pdx.edu

Jonathan Pryce wrote:

>Hi Tom,
>
>Thanks so much for that very "skookum" reply. I've just ordered a used copy
>of Cradle's book on amazon.com.
>
>The Mountaineers (www.mountaineers.org) is a Seattle outdoor organization,
>founded in 1906.  In addition to environmental advocacy, they offer classes
>in mountaineering, organize trips and publish books, including the seminal
>three volume "Cascade Alpine Guide" by Fred Beckey.  To say that Becky, now
>in his 80s, is possibly one of the most accomplished mountain climbers in
>the Cascades is an understatement.  His individual route descriptions
>generally offer a bit of history, including the origins of the mountains'
>names.  Beckey is also a historian.  In his 2003 book on the exploration of
>the North Cascades, "Range of Glaciers," there are several references to CJ
>functioning as the means of communication between the First Nations people
>and the Europeans and how CJ was later used as a source of place names.
>
>BTW, the Mazamas (www.mazamas.org) constitute the Portland counterpart to
>the Mountaineers.  They can boast a CJ motto.  From their FAQ:
>
>"The Mazamas' slogan, "Nesika Klatawa Sahale" is Chinook Indian jargon,
>freely translated as "We Climb High." It has been used since the
>organization was formed in 1894. The Mazamas logo depicts a mountain goat,
>or "mazama," atop a triangle with a dot in the center - the common
>surveying symbol for a mountaintop."
>
>Cheers,
>
>Jonathan Pryce
>Seattle, Washington
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>---------------
>Jonathan Pryce
>(206) 783-3175
>
>Keep trying.  There's always more toothpaste in the tube.
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Tom Larsen" <larsent at pdx.edu>
>To: "Jonathan Pryce" <jonathanpryce at COMCAST.NET>
>Cc: <CHINOOK at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 11:36 PM
>Subject: Re: Is the word "Tuschohatchie" of CJ origin?
>
>
>  
>
>>Hi Jonathan,
>>
>>I have never heard of a word in Chinook Jargon that sounds anything like
>>Tuscohatchie.  That and the fact that you haven't been able to find it
>>in any CJ glossary suggests very strongly that it is indeed not of
>>Chinook Jargon origin.  And yet for some reason the name sounded
>>strangely familiar to me.
>>
>>I did a Google search on Washington geographic names, and among the many
>>hits that I got, I found this Web page:
>>
>>http://search.tpl.lib.wa.us/wanames/placfulld.asp?2-7719
>>
>>which suggested this origin for the name:
>>
>>"Two connected lakes on the north slope of Granite Mountain are three
>>miles west of Snoqualmie Pass in east central King County. The upper
>>lake is 58.3 acres, the lower 31.8 acres. The lake was named by The
>>Mountaineers. Doug Cardle in his book on King County place name origins
>>indicates that the name may be from the Muskogian Indian name for
>>"stream of the warrior." In Muskogia "tushka" is warrior and "hachi" is
>>a stream. (Cardle, King County, p. 110)."
>>
>>With regards to that "stream" business, note that there is also a
>>Tuscohatchie Creek in Washington.  Anyway, Muskogean languages were
>>originally spoken in Southeastern United States.  One has to wonder why
>>two lakes and a creek in Washington would have a name deriving from a
>>language spoken in the opposite corner of the country, but maybe one of
>>"The Mountaineers" (whoever they are) were from that part of the
>>country.  In any case this did jog my memory as to why the name sounded
>>familiar.  Wasn't there some song way back when about someone named
>>Billy Joe who threw something off the TALLAHATCHIE bridge?  Tallahatchie
>>is similar enough to Tuscohatchie that this probably explains why I
>>thought the name sounded familiar.  There is a Tallahatchie River and a
>>Tallahatchie County in Mississippi, and another Google search turned up
>>this Web page:
>>
>>http://www.mymississippigenealogy.com/ms_county/tal.htm
>>
>>which claims that
>>
>>"Tallahatchie is an Indian name meaning Rock River"
>>
>>Notice that both Tuscohatchie and Tallahatchie contain "hatchie", and
>>both words contain "stream/river" as part of their alleged meanings, so
>>maybe there is something to this.  The second Web site doesn't say what
>>language this alleged "Indian" word comes from, but Choctaw is a
>>Muskogean language spoken in Mississippi, so maybe there is at least a
>>grain of truth of all of these allegations.
>>
>>But it's also interesting to note that in the same way that Chinook
>>Jargon served as a lingua franca in the Northwest, there was also a
>>Mobilian Jargon that served as a lingua franca in the Southeast.
>>Mobilian Jargon was derived largely from Muskogean languages as well as
>>some of the other languages of the region.  With this in mind, I thumbed
>>rather quickly through _Mobilian Jargon: Linguistic and Sociohistorical
>>Aspects of a Native American Pidgin_ by Emanuel J. Drechsel (Oxford
>>University Press, 1997). In this book I found a number of things that
>>may confirm both of the above etymologies.
>>
>>- On p. 101, Drechsel gives the word "tale" as the Mobilian Jargon word
>>for "rock".  This could be the "Talla" of Tallahatchie ("rock river").
>>
>>- On p. 171, he gives the word "tashka" as the Choctaw word for
>>"warrior", though he also seems to be saying (without my actually having
>>read the whole section very carefully) that this could also be a
>>Mobilian Jargon word. This word is probably the "Tusco" of
>>"Tuscohatchie" ("warrior stream").  It is also apparently the "Tusca" of
>>"Tuscaloosa", a city in Alabama ("loosa" being related to the Choctaw
>>... and also Mobilian Jargon? ... word "losa" meaning "black"; "Black
>>Warrrior" was the name of a Creek chief.)
>>
>>- On p. 318, he gives "hacca" as the Choctaw word for "river".  This
>>word is probably related to the "hatchie" of Tuscohatchie and
>>Tallahatchie.  It is also related to the first two syllables of
>>"Atchafalaya", the name of a river in Louisiana.  (The word "falaya" is
>>the Choctaw word for "long".) Drechsel suggests that the "Choctaw" name
>>Atchafalaya entered English through the medium of Mobilian Jargon.
>>
>>So given all of that, I'm now inclined to think, unlikely as it might
>>seem, that Doug Cardle's etymology for Tuscohatchie is correct.  It
>>would be interesting to know how this Muskogean/Choctaw/Mobilian Jargon
>>or whatever it is word made it up to Washington amongst all of the other
>>places with CJ names.  Does anyone know who "The Mountaineers" cited on
>>that Web page are?
>>
>>-- 
>>Tom Larsen
>>
>>Database Management and Catalog Librarian
>>Branford Price Millar Library
>>Portland State University
>>P.O. Box 1151
>>Portland, OR 97207-1151
>>
>>
>>Jonathan Pryce wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Hi all,
>>>
>>>This is my first posting to the list.  Please be warned I'm not a
>>>      
>>>
>scholar,
>  
>
>>>just a special needs school teacher who began to ask questions about
>>>      
>>>
>place
>  
>
>>>names in the Pacific NW and so "stumbled" onto the Jargon.
>>>
>>>Tuscohatchie is a place name, two lakes namely, an upper and a lower, in
>>>the SW Alpine Lakes Wilderness area just NW of Snoqualmie Pass.  Said
>>>      
>>>
>pass
>  
>
>>>is some 50 miles east of Seattle.
>>>
>>>I ask because, as in much of the Washington State Cascades, this patch
>>>      
>>>
>is
>  
>
>>>richly endowed with place names of CJ origin, e.g., Kaleetan Peak and
>>>      
>>>
>Lake,
>  
>
>>>the aptly named Melakwa Lake, Talapus Lake, Ollalie Lake (berry picking
>>>      
>>>
>is
>  
>
>>>better at Kaleetan Lake), Lake Kulla Kulla and other CJ place names.
>>>
>>>After reading Jim Holton's CJ book--my first proper introduction to the
>>>Jargon--I suspect these appellations are the work of A. H. Sylvester, an
>>>employee with the Unites States Geological Survey in late 19th and early
>>>20th centuries.  The first topographical maps of the area were produced
>>>around this time.  Sylvester's name appears on many early maps,
>>>      
>>>
>including
>  
>
>>>my copy of the 1898 Snoqualmie Pass 30 min. topo.  Holton mentions an
>>>amusing story relating to the Sylvester's naming of a dog and a peak.
>>>
>>>I've never found Tuscohatchie in any of the CJ glossaries I'm familiar
>>>with.  Anyone know?
>>>
>>>Thanks in advance,
>>>
>>>Jonathan Pryce
>>>Seattle, Washington
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>    
>>
>-
>  
>
>>>---------------
>>>Jonathan Pryce
>>>(206) 783-3175
>>>
>>>Keep trying.  There's always more toothpaste in the tube.
>>>
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>>>
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>  
>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>    
>>
>
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>

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