Defining issues in Ed Ling

[Dick Hudson]

Dear Dan and Richard,
I don't see how this is different from what Dan said at first: surely
linguistics can (and does) study meanings (and discourse strategies) as
well as the words that carry them? So 'knowing what "school language" is'
includes knowing what the language means and how it's used. Admittedly you
don't go to a linguist for a definition of photosynthesis or hypotenuse (or
the mathematical sense of table), but that's a familiar situation for
linguists - they take the 'native speakers', not themselves, as the source
of data. Obviously it entails collaboration with experts from other
disciplines.
         Dick


At 09:35 16/12/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>Richard:  Yes - you add a crucial dimension to the discussion - of course
>eductional linguistics is primarily about education - otherwise the terms
>would be reversed - and what counts is the learning of mathematics,
>history, or biology.  The language that goes with it consists of symbols
>to encode the content and is not the content itself.  By way of excuse,
>all we linguists know about is linguistics and so of course we tend to
>give it prominence in any discussion.
>
>Cheers,
>Dan
>
>At 08:49 AM 12/16/2003, you wrote:
>>Message-ID: <EXECMAIL.1031216144919.G at educ-pc56.bristol.ac.uk>
>>Priority: NORMAL
>>X-Mailer: Execmail for Win32 Version 5.0.1 Build (55)
>>MIME-Version: 1.0
>>Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>>
>>While I support much of the preceding points raised by Dick, Bernard
>>and Dan, I fear a slightly narrow focus on language per se - a little
>>too much 'linguistics', not quite enough 'educational'
>>
>>Dan, for example, suggested that "Helping our learners develop a rich
>>repertoire of linguistic choices, appropriate for the many contexts
>>they'll find themselves negotiating as they move through the system and
>>enter the workplace as adults is what we're about"
>>
>>While I agree that this is part of what educational linguistics might
>>work on, I want to add something about how language(s), linguistic
>>choices etc. are related to learning - not the learning of language,
>>but the learning of everything else in the curriculum.
>>
>>I, for example, come from a mathematics education background. My
>>research is about multilingual mathematics classrooms. Some key
>>questions include:
>>
>>.How does learning the language of schooling relate with how children
>>learn mathematics through that language?
>>.How do children use language to make sense of mathematics?
>>.How do teachers use language to make sense of mathematics?
>>.How can teachers use language to support students to make sense of
>>mathematics?
>>
>>Part of learning mathematics is about learning how to talk like a
>>mathematician, but it is not enough, for me, for us to study how
>>mathematicians talk, or how to teach children how to talk like a
>>mathematician - the relationship between the talk and the mathematics
>>is crucial, and for me, an important area of work for educational
>>linguistics. And equally for the other curriculum areas...
>>
>>Richard Barwell
>>
>>
>>
>>On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 21:40:18 +0000 Dick Hudson
>><dick at linguistics.ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
>>
>>| Dan: Thanks. That's what I hoped you meant. That "rich repertoire of
>>| linguistic choices" is the heart of the matter. What we need to
>>| understand
>>| better is (a) what it is and (b) how to teach it. A challenging agenda,
>>| but
>>| I think we're on the way (even if we're still far nearer the beginning
>>| of
>>| the road than its end).
>>| Dick
>>|
>>| At 14:21 15/12/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>>| >Dick:  You raise an important issue, and help clarify the problem, I
>>| >think.  When I suggest that we need to understand the nature of
>>| language
>>| >use in the educational context, I mean that we need to know more about
>>| not
>>| >only the learners' language use, but what the expectations of the
>>| >educational system are as well.  What is this "cognitive academic
>>| language
>>| >proficiency" / school language we educational linguists are interested
>>| >in?  Helping our learners develop a rich repertoire of linguistic
>>| choices,
>>| >appropriate for the many contexts they'll find themselves negotiating
>>| as
>>| >they move through the system and enter the workplace as adults is what
>>| >we're about, it seems to me.
>>| >
>>| >Cheers,
>>| >Dan
>>| >
>>| >At 07:26 PM 12/15/2003 +0000, you wrote:
>>| >>Dear Dan,
>>| >>I'm not sure what you mean by this:
>>| >>>  The bottom line is understanding the nature of language use in the
>>| >>> educational context, it seems to me, and, as you suggest, tests can
>>| be
>>| >>> used to encourage teachers to discover the complex language systems
>>| >>> pupils already control.
>>| >>
>>| >>You seem to be assuming that educational language is just a
>>| particular
>>| >>way of using a child's existing language resources. While agreeing
>>| that
>>| >>there has been a tendency for teachers to underestimate these
>>| resources,
>>| >>I also think there's a danger of overestimating them. One of the
>>| >>foundations for language work (in L1 English) over here in England is
>>| the
>>| >>(Hallidayan) belief that those resources need to grow - schools teach
>>| new
>>| >>language, in fact a very great deal of it. New vocabulary, new syntax
>>| and
>>| >>new meanings that the children wouldn't have without schooling. Maybe
>>| you
>>| >>wouldn't agree, but if you do, would that be covered by your
>>| "language use"?
>>| >>
>>| >>Dick
>>| >>
>>| >>Richard (= Dick) Hudson
>>| >>
>>| >>Phonetics and Linguistics, University College London,
>>| >>Gower Street, London WC1E  6BT.
>>| >>+44(0)20 7679 3152; fax +44(0)20 7383 4108;
>>| >>http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/dick/home.htm
>>| >Professor, TESL/Applied Linguistics Program
>>| >Co-editor, Language Testing
>>| >English Department
>>| >Iowa State University
>>| >Ames, IA 50011, USA
>>| >Phone: (515) 294-9365
>>| >Fax: (515) 294-6814
>>|
>>|
>>| Richard (= Dick) Hudson
>>|
>>| Phonetics and Linguistics, University College London,
>>| Gower Street, London WC1E  6BT.
>>| +44(0)20 7679 3152; fax +44(0)20 7383 4108;
>>| http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/dick/home.htm
>>
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>Richard Barwell
>>Graduate School of Education
>>University of Bristol
>>35 Berkeley Square
>>Bristol, BS8 1JA, UK
>>+44 (0)117 33 14276
>
>Professor, TESL/Applied Linguistics Program
>Co-editor, Language Testing
>English Department
>Iowa State University
>Ames, IA 50011, USA
>Phone: (515) 294-9365
>Fax: (515) 294-6814


Richard (= Dick) Hudson

Phonetics and Linguistics, University College London,
Gower Street, London WC1E  6BT.
+44(0)20 7679 3152; fax +44(0)20 7383 4108;
http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/dick/home.htm
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