[EDLING:185] Re: L2 in US Schools

[Liang Chen]

The age of exposure to L2 may not necessarily related to fluency and
communicative competence. In fact, it is even doubtful whether the
earlier the better when it comes to L2 learning. Chinese students start
English education at around age 12, and most of them are not competent
and fluent communicators in English upon they graduation from college at
around 22. The main reason is that they are taught mainly to prepare for
tests, rather than to communicate in English. Also, without a solid
foundation of L1, L2 won't proceed very far.

----- Original Message -----
From: <sicola at dolphin.upenn.edu>
To: <edling at ccat.sas.upenn.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 9:15 PM
Subject: [EDLING:184] Re: L2 in US Schools


One other little detail, pedagogy and philosophy aside, is that most
western
European school systems start teaching foreign languages (especially
English)
from various points in elementary school. We rarely start teaching
foreign
language until junior high or high school. So by age 17, the average
American
student has had somewhere between 2-5 years of German (e.g.), whereas
the
average German student has had somewhere between 5-10 years of English.
You
can do a whole lot more "communicating" at that point. So it's not
really a
fair comparison of proficiency levels there either.

A better question - which is often discussed - is WHY we wait so long
and
place so little emphasis on foreign language instruction. Those who have
written below have already done a nice job of introducing that topic.
But it
is, sadly, the tip of the iceberg.

Laura

Quoting "Maureen T. Matarese" <maureenmatarese at yahoo.com>:

> Chris,
>
> I both agree and disagree with your claim.  You see--it's too simple
There
> are several problems that make this issue stickier than it needs to be
(in no
> particular order):
> 1. Conflicting theories about pedagogy (i.e. communicative approach
vs.
> product/audiolingual approach)
> 2. Conflicting theories about "America" and "American language"
> 3. Conflicting theories about testing
> 4. Problems others that I can't think of right now.
>
> As Courtney suggested, the English-only movement in the United States
is
> still going strong, and I would highly recommend "Language Loyalities"
by
> James Crawford for a readable, historical account of this movement.
> BUT--it's not easy enough to say that it's just about English Only.
> Yes--people think that English is important, and that's a politically
charged
> subject that brings in issues of English as a colonizing force that
carries
> with it western ideology. However--more and more the government is
trying to
> get linguists (for selfish purposes perhaps--but all the
> same...multilingualism is slowing gaining SOME distinction).  I agree
that
> EFL teaching of other languages is poor in this country overall, but I
don't
> think that it's ENTIRELY because of the government's desire to squish
the
> culture of heritage language speakers (although many people would like
to).
>
> It also comes from a long held traditional pedagogy.  It comes from
the
> reason why I can still sing 'Popeye the Sailor Man' and 'Row, Row, Row
Your
> Boat' in Latin (for what that's worth).  Repetition and the
audiolingual
> method of making things habit is still alive and well the foreign
language
> context, although many, many teachers are trying to change that.  This
ties
> into the issue of testing:
>
> I understand your beef with teaching to the test.  Many people agree
with
> you.  What we have to remember (hoping I don't get crucified for this)
is
> that people need tests that adequately test student knowledge in a
subject.
> SO--we can't have communicative tests if we're teaching audiolingually
and
> visa versa.  So the question obviously is which do we change first.
In order
> to be fair--we can't start testing communicatively until we start
teaching
> communicatively.  BUT THEN--teachers continue teaching
> audiolingually--because that's what the students will be tested on.
HAHA!
> The rat race continues.  It's the chicken or the egg scenario.  The
tests
> will change with the teaching changes--but who knows when that will
> happen--really.  I've been out of high school for a while now--so
perhaps
> they're changing, and I don't know it.  The GRE is the way that it is
not
> only because that's what people apparently value--but also because the
test
> writers see these types of questions as
>  eliciting the kind of information that people value.  From their
side--why
> should they test people on things that they're not learning
(pragmatics and
> acceptability--for example--rather than analogies (God knows how many
times
> those come up in my daily life!).  You can't test something that
you're not
> teaching--so as much as we hate the tests--ideologies have the change
first.
>
>
> Anyway--the answer is never simple--because language, pedagogy, and
eduation
> are all political and tangled.  Moreover--there's probably a lot more
that I
> haven't said....
>
> Certainly, we have something to learn from your German friend though,
and I
> know that our ESL classes here are DEFINITELY moving in that
direction--and
> have been for years--so maybe it will trickle down into our
foreign/heritage
> language depts soon.  I hear they're doing cool things in Jersey with
that
> these days.
>
> Best Wishes,
> Maureen (Mo)
>
> Courtney Garron <cfgarron at ureach.com> wrote:
> Hi Chris,
>
> I imagine that you'll have a lot of responses to your inquiry.
> Your perception and concern are astute and impressive. As you
> know, so many Americans are only concerned with ENGLISH. Plenty
> of people, including some native-Spanish speakers, are part of
> the growing English-Only movement in this country. It's scary
> what other cultures and heritages some people are willing to
> squelch in order to maintain their power.
> Check out this website: http://www.us-english.org/
>
> What does this have to do with L2 education in the country?
> The most important aspect to consider in your questioning of why
> things are the way they are. Who is in power and who has a
> vested interest in maintaining the status quo? In this case,
> it's monolingual English speakers who are the power-holders,
> business leaders, politicians, etc. in the US (and therefore the
> world). Bilingualism scares these people. They see it as a
> deficiency instead of the tremendous advantage it is. These
> days, the powers that be believe that we only really need
> another language to communicate with the laborers who don't
> speak English.
>
> It's complicated, but I believe that your question is directly
> related to the power structure in this country. Good luck in
> your quest for information. And thanks for writing.
>
> Courtney
> Bilingual Bicultural Education MA student, DePaul University
>
>
> ---- On Wed, 12 May 2004, Forty8STITCHES at aol.com
> (Forty8STITCHES at aol.com) wrote:
>
> > Hey everyone,
> >
> > I just wanted to drop a line and give you the "inside scoop"
> on the L2
> > programs in US high schools. I'm only a junior in high
> school, but I noticed
> > something scary about how the schools here teach foreign
> languages after I compared
> > my Spanish skills to my German exchange student's English
> skills. We've both
> > been on similar tracks, and we've both studied our L2 for five
> years; however,
> > his English was much better than my Spanish (as an amateur
> linguist, I threw
> > out this whole business about English being the 'most
> important language'
> > now). So, I talked to him about his classes. He told me that
> they were geared
> > much more towards overall fluency, with added stress primarily
> on speaking.
> > Compared to the L2 programs (with the exception of ESL) of
> high schools that I've
> > studied, his school's English program seemed like a blessing
> to anyone
> > wishing to pick up another language. As for my conclusion
> about schools, here it
> > is: The second language programs of US grammar and high
> schools, public and
> > private, are in terrible condition. Instead of focusing on
> fluency and
> > instruction in the target language, programs have chosen to
> emphasize test-taking
> > skills, primarily those in regard to the SAT II and various
> college exams.
> >
> > If anyone else has noticed this or a similar trend, please
> explain the
> > situation and possible causes.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > --Chris
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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