ELL: Re: Flemish

[Niels Wijnen]

Gerd Jendraschek:
> The difference between the varieties is always the same, because the
> speakers' impression regarding them is located between two poles:
>
> b) When a speaker of variety A hears a speaker of variety B, he almost
> immediately recognizes that he speaks a different variety, that they
> don't speak the same way. The differences between A and B may cause
> misunderstandings --> different languages.

Yes, in the bussiness world there are often misunderstandings because of this.
It is often more difficult to negotiate with a partner that doesn't speak
Dutch, then between a Flemish and a Dutch companie. They think they speak the
same language, but they forget that the value of some words are different in
the both parts of the Dutch language area. And this creates misunderstandings.

> Moreover, the sociolinguistic situation of both varieties is not the
> same.
...
> and this is why it is mentioned among the positive cases of language
> revitalization: from an unofficial, stigmatized, fragmented dialect group to
> an official, modernized, standardized language.

Flemish was until the beginning of the 20th centurie just a collection of
dialects. 'The Flemish people' didn't exist at all. In Belgium the official
language was French, although more then 50% of the inhabitants spoke a Dutch
dialect. Then they standarized the Dutch language also in Flanders by
connecting it with the Dutch spoken in the Netherlands. From that point
the 'Flemish nationality' start to grow (again). And now, since about 50 years,
you can really speak (again) of the Flemish people (altough Flanders is now
bigger then it was in the Middleages). 50 years ago the most people thought the
(official) Dutch language was the only Dutch. Flemish didn't exist. Nowdays
Flanders is a economical and cultural wealthy region, part of the FEDERAL state
Belgium. The Flemish people really exist! And now there are more and more
people who see Flemish as a real language, different than standard Dutch.

Of course the scientific discussion is much more complicated, and goes beyond
the 'feelings' that one has about the status of the language he/she speaks.


William J Poser:
> If I'm not mistaken there is a disparity between the official standard
> for Flemish and the actual standard. That is, the position of the Belgian
> government, at least in the past 15 or 20 years, has been that Flemish
> is the same thing as Dutch. They even re-named it - the language is supposed
> to be called "nederlands", not "vlaams". So, as I understand it, in theory
> written standard Flemish should be the same as written standard Dutch.

This was before the national country Beglium was transformed into a Federal
state Belgium (in 1993). The Belgian Federal government doesn't says anything
anymore about the status of the Flemish/Dutch, it isn't their bussiness anymore.
But yes, in theory it should be the same. In theory.

> However, in practice, there are some differences between Flemish and Dutch
> that are always maintained, even by educated "standard" speakers. For example,
> I don't think that any Flemish speaker would consider it proper to say
> "mannetje" for "boy" rather than "mannika", even though standard Dutch
> uses -tje for the diminutive rather than -ka. Is this not so?

It is 'manneke'. And indeed, in Flanders 'manneke' is prefered
above 'mannetje'. But I think that in Flanders the people would use 'ventje',
which you certainly don't use in the Netherlands.

> As a little aside on language attitudes, at one point the admissions
> tickets for the Plantin Museum (the famous old print shop) said in
> French "Ministry of Education and National Culture" but in Flemish
> "Ministry of Education and Dutch Culture".

Before the federalization of Belgium. Now it will be "the Flemish Ministry of
Culture", or "the Ministry of Culture of the Flemish Community".


Niels,
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