Outsiders' views of the value of linguistics

[Mark P. Line]

Though his extended kerfuffle with Chomsky(ans) may be too dated for your
purpose, the cognitive scientist Roger Schank does come to mind:

"The MIT linguist Noam Chomsky represents everything that's bad about
academics."

from: http://www.edge.org/documents/ThirdCulture/q-Ch.9.html


-- Mark

Mark P. Line
Bartlesville, OK




Roger Schank comes to mind

Frederick J Newmeyer wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> The comments so far re language pedagogy, language policy, language
> revitalization, etc. are all very interesting and I thank you for them.
> But what I am really looking for are quotes from cognitive scientists,
> anthropologists, philosophers, and others in research-oriented (rather
> than applied) fields on the great value / great worthlessness of current
> linguistic theory (of whatever variety).
>
> --fritz
>
>
> Frederick J. Newmeyer
> Professor Emeritus, University of Washington
> Adjunct Professor, University of British Columbia and Simon Fraser
> University
> [for my postal address, please contact me by e-mail]
>
> On Thu, 21 Oct 2010, A. Katz wrote:
>
>> John,
>>
>> I have some experience with linguists running language pedagogy seminars
>> in
>> the United States. The people running the seminars had never taught a
>> foreign
>> language, and they were mostly monolingual English speakers. The people
>> teaching the foreign languages who were forced (yes, forced!) to attend
>> the
>> seminar were mostly native speakers of the languages they taught who did
>> not
>> have tenure. (The tenured foreign language professors were apparently
>> spared
>> this.) It was a complete farce.
>>
>>   --Aya
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 21 Oct 2010, john at research.haifa.ac.il wrote:
>>
>>> Exactly my point. Where language teaching is taken seriously, the need
>>> for
>>> linguistics is self-evident. In the United States, it's much harder.
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Quoting "Danielle E. Cyr" <dcyr at yorku.ca>:
>>>
>>>> Canada's official bilingualism makes the teaching of linguistics very
>>>> important
>>>> both in English departments, French Studies and general linguistics.
>>>> In my
>>>> French Studies department, for example, students enter with the mere
>>>> intention
>>>> to learn and teach French. All of them have to take an introductory
>>>> course
>>>> to
>>>> linguistics and 18 more credits in more advanced courses in
>>>> linguistics.
>>>> At
>>>> the
>>>> introductory course level I make sure that, for every aspect of
>>>> internal
>>>> and
>>>> external linguistics, I make my students aware of the jobs attached to
>>>> that
>>>> chunk of knowledge:
>>>>
>>>> INTERNAL LINGUISTICS:
>>>> - for phonetics/phonology :speech re-education, voice recognition,
>>>> cochlear
>>>> implants, digital song editing, and even linguistic spying;
>>>> - for morphology : speech therapy, language teaching and language
>>>> teaching
>>>> materials, lexicography, artificial intelligence, among others;
>>>> - for syntax : language teaching, artificial intelligence, language
>>>> re-education;
>>>>  - for semantics : lexicography, literature; philosophy, psychology,
>>>> history,
>>>> intercultural studies, political studies, law, commerce, diplomacy;
>>>> EXTERNAL LINGUISTICS:
>>>> - for socio- and psycholinguistics: a better access to individual and
>>>> social
>>>> understanding, among others workplace relationships, psychology,
>>>> ethics,
>>>> intercultural studies, etc.
>>>> - for historical linguistics: the history of social change, the
>>>> history of
>>>> international contacts through time and space, the history of ideas,
>>>> etc.
>>>> - for political linguistics (history of language laws in Canada): a
>>>> better
>>>> understanding of Canada's history, ofCanada's populations's history,
>>>> of
>>>> the
>>>> making of ideas and identities, of the role of languages in the
>>>> building
>>>> of
>>>> nationhoods, etc.
>>>>
>>>> They also say that linguistics helps them in their acquisition of
>>>> French
>>>> and,
>>>> for those who are in a concurrent program in Education, that it helps
>>>> them
>>>> in
>>>> their teaching practicum. Most of them reckon that linguistics helps
>>>> them
>>>> in
>>>> all areas of their college courses and contribute their linguistic
>>>> knowledge
>>>> in
>>>> their other class discussions.
>>>>
>>>> In the end many of my students are convinced that studying linguistics
>>>> makes
>>>> them more enlightened human beings and citizens. They are also aware
>>>> that
>>>> their
>>>> studies in linguistics can make them better teachers, lawyers,
>>>> jurists,
>>>> diplomats, psychologists, writers, physicians, journalists,
>>>> translators,
>>>> merchants, parents, caregivers, etc. etc. etc.
>>>>
>>>> Not bad after all. And, when after twenty years in the profession of
>>>> linguist, I
>>>> count that I have help producing at least 2,000 such citizens, I have
>>>> no
>>>> problem
>>>> explaining to the general population that linguistics is really useful
>>>> and
>>>> also
>>>> a source of pleasure and happiness :)
>>>>
>>>> Danielle
>>>>
>>>> P.S. By the way, some years ago I picked the following quotation
>>>> somewhere. I
>>>> liked it so much that I use it in my signature. However, I don't know
>>>> who
>>>> the
>>>> author i and it makes me feel bad that I am using someone's wisdom
>>>> without
>>>> acknowledging him/her. Would any of you recognize its source?
>>>>
>>>> "The only hope we have as human beings is to learn each other's
>>>> languages.
>>>> Only
>>>> then can we truly hope to understand one another."
>>>> Quoting john at research.haifa.ac.il:
>>>>
>>>>> It isn't just grammar teaching, it's also foreign language teaching
>>>>> in
>>>>> general.
>>>>> English speakers tend not even to think of this since in
>>>>> English-speaking
>>>>> countries there is no serious expectation that foreign language
>>>>> classes
>>>> will
>>>>> produce students who can actually practically use the language that
>>>>> they're
>>>>> supposedly learning. But in countries in which foreign language
>>>>> teaching
>>>>> is
>>>>> taken seriously, people naturally recognize the connection to
>>>>> linguistics.
>>>>> When people in Israel ask me what being a linguist entails, my first
>>>>> stock
>>>>> answer is 'we train people to be English teachers.'
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Quoting Richard Hudson <dick at ling.ucl.ac.uk>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Fritz,
>>>>>> I agree entirely with Olga. The discussion has a very anglo-phone
>>>>>> bias
>>>>>> away from education - the UK, USA etc all have a tradition in which
>>>>>> school teachers aren't expected to have learned anything about
>>>>>> language
>>>>>> at university, so academic research on language isn't relevant to
>>>>>> education. We're very different from many parts of Europe, where
>>>>>> grammar
>>>>>> teaching is an important part of the school curriculum and trainee
>>>>>> teachers update their understanding at university. I'm sure in a
>>>>>> country
>>>>>> like that, linguistics would be justified in part by its
>>>>>> contribution to
>>>>>> education. I don't know of any bibliographical source for this - if
>>>>>> anyone does, I'd love to see it. I've written quite a bit about the
>>>>>> value of linguistics for education (see
>>>>>> www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/dick/papers.htm) but haven't been able to do
>>>>>> much on that line except pick up odds and ends from gossip. (I do
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> evidence that school kids know a great deal more grammar in
>>>>>> countries
>>>>>> such as Spain - see
>>>>>> http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/dick/ec/ba-kal/ba-kal.htm.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dick (Hudson)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Richard Hudson www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/dick/home.htm
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 20/10/2010 18:43, Yokoyama, Olga wrote:
>>>>>>> Fritz,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I take it that your article is about the academic community's
>>>>>>> attitudes
>>>>>> towards linguistics. Although not part of your topic but still very
>>>>> important
>>>>>> for the status of linguistics and the budgetary decisions made
>>>>>> especially
>>>>> in
>>>>>> public institutions are attitudes towards linguistics in the lay
>>>>>> society.
>>>>> We
>>>>>> all have experienced the routine questioning along the lines of "Oh,
>>>> you're
>>>>> a
>>>>>> linguist? So how many languages do you know?". Misunderstandings out
>>>> there
>>>>>> are vast and we linguists need to address them. One way my
>>>>>> department
>>>>>> did
>>>>> it
>>>>>> this summer was by addressing the Arizona ruling on teachers with
>>>> accented
>>>>>> English in a public conference, which combined international
>>>>>> scholars
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> practitioners in one room
>>>>>> (http://sites.google.com/site/uclalinguisticdiversconf2010/). U.
>>>>>> Oregon's
>>>>>> Olympiad for secondary school students is another step in the right
>>>>>> direction. Linguists need to start talking to the public at large
>>>>>> and
>>>> make
>>>>>> sure that the future generations don???t vote for closing
>>>>>> linguistics
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> language departments (cf. the latest SUNY Albany case) based on
>>>>>> budget
>>>>>> considerations combined with glaring ignorance about what language
>>>> studies
>>>>>> are.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Olga
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Olga T. Yokoyama
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Professor and Chair
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Department of Applied Linguistics and TESL
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> University of California, Los Angeles
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tel. (310) 825-4631
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fax (310) 206-4118
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.appling.ucla.edu
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: funknet-bounces at mailman.rice.edu
>>>>>> [mailto:funknet-bounces at mailman.rice.edu] On Behalf Of Frederick J
>>>> Newmeyer
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 10:13 AM
>>>>>>> To: Funknet
>>>>>>> Subject: [FUNKNET] Outsiders' views of the value of linguistics
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For a survey article that I'm writing, I plan to assemble quotes
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>> people outside the field of linguistics on what they see as the
>>>>>> value,
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> lack of value, of work done in linguistics. So I would like to cite
>>>>> published
>>>>>> quotes from psychologists, anthropologists, literary specialists,
>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> their views about the value/relevance of linguistics for their
>>>>>> particular
>>>>>> concerns and its value/relevance in general. Can anybody help me out
>>>>>> by
>>>>>> pointing me to relevant quotes?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let me give one example of the sort of thing that I am looking for.
>>>>>>> The
>>>>>> late computational linguist Fred Jelinek reportedly wrote: 'Whenever
>>>>>> I
>>>>> ???re
>>>>>> a linguist our system performance improves'.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks. I'll summarize.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --fritz
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> fjn at u.washington.edu
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Frederick J. Newmeyer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Professor Emeritus, University of Washington
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Adjunct Professor, University of British Columbia and Simon Fraser
>>>>>> University
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [for my postal address, please contact me by e-mail]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> This message was sent using IMP, the Webmail Program of Haifa
>>>>> University
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "The only hope we have as human beings is to learn each other's
>>>> languages.
>>>> Only
>>>> then can we truly hope to understand one another."
>>>>
>>>> Professor Danielle E. Cyr
>>>> Department of French Studies
>>>> York University
>>>> Toronto, ON, Canada, M3J 1P3
>>>> Tel. 1.416.736.2100 #310180
>>>> FAX. 1.416.736.5924
>>>> dcyr at yorku.ca
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> This message was sent using IMP, the Webmail Program of Haifa
>>> University
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>


-- Mark

Mark P. Line
Bartlesville, OK