Daddies and mummies
Goretty Robles Fernández
gorettyr at GMAIL.COM
Sat May 3 08:09:03 UTC 2008
El 3 May 2008, a las 01:16, Kenneth Hyde escribió:
> One of the things that struck me, and perhaps can be confirmed by
> Marisol and other Spanish speakers, is that the "translation" in the
> subtitle was quite a bit stronger than the actual Spanish words.
> The subtitles made a lot of use of "fucking" in places where the
> Spanish had no such verbal emphasis, e.g. "inutil" was translated as
> "fucking useless" not just "useless."
As far as I can say, after living six years in the Bay Area, the
wording is far more loaded in the English version. The spanish script
is "normal", those are the things I overhear in the hood (even milder)
back in Spain. Anyhow, fortunately enough, I don't know the exact
wording of an American disrespecting his wife. Well, on my view
captions are stronger than the oral text.
>
>
> Ken
>
> On May 2, 2008, at 4:47 PM, del-Teso-Craviotto, Marisol Ms. wrote:
>
>> Well, as a Spaniard, I wasn't shocked by the words or the presence
>> of the girl in the clip, so I agree that both the clip and its
>> readings are very much culturally based. Beyond the specifics of
>> this short film (the presence of the girl, her age, the artistic
>> value of the film), I think we must take into account the socio-
>> political context in which it has been produced.
>>
>> The clip was made in 2005 by "Proyectafilms", a producing firm in
>> Spain. You have information about it in proyectafilms.com.
>> Apparently, it was made with the "make the most out of the least"
>> principle and has won several nominations and awards, whose
>> international reach or quality I'm in no position to judge. It is
>> also interesting that many feminist organizations and ongs have
>> asked them to use the clip in their campaigns against gender
>> violence, so at least in Spain, people seem to recognize some value
>> in the up-front and crude representation of domestic violence as
>> viewed from a child's perspective.
>>
>> It seems that this short film goes hand in hand with Spanish
>> official attempts to make domestic violence visible and the target
>> of political, police and civil discussion. The present and recently
>> formed government in Spain (the first one with more women than men
>> as ministers, and an eight-month pregnant woman as the minister of
>> defense, which has caused quite an uproar among conservatives) has
>> made equality (including of course gender equality) one of its
>> priorities, and evidenced in the creation of a ministry of
>> equality. So I think that it is in this context that we have to
>> view the short film, although I understand that other readings and
>> reactions are also possible and valid, as shown in the messages to
>> GALA-L.
>>
>> My two Spanish cents,
>> Marisol
>>
>> ***************************************
>> Marisol del-Teso-Craviotto
>> Assistant Professor of Linguistics
>> Dept. of Spanish and Portuguese
>> Miami University
>> Oxford, OH 45056
>> ________________________________________
>> From: International Gender and Language Association [GALA-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
>> ] On Behalf Of Valentina Pagliai [Valentina.Pagliai at OBERLIN.EDU]
>> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 3:02 PM
>> To: GALA-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
>> Subject: Re: [GALA-L] Daddies and mummies
>>
>> I am Italian, and I too do not feel I can speak for all Italians.
>> But as a Tuscan of working class background, I can say the words
>> used by the girl actor did not bother me. Maybe we have a different
>> upbringing.
>> Being direct, argumentative and coming out strong is a positive
>> thing and children are exposed to and learn to use fighting words
>> early.
>>
>> But even in the US there are studies showing that the middle class
>> ideal of avoiding foul language esp. in front of children are not
>> necessarily shared by everybody.
>> Working class mothers and minorities may have different views, as
>> in the following two articles.
>>
>> Miller, Peggy 1986. “Teasing as Language Socialization and Verbal
>> Play in a White Working-Class Community.” In B Schieffelin & E.
>> Ochs (Eds.) Language and Socialization Across Cultures.
>> Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. (Pp. 51-79).
>> Eisenberg, Ann 1986. “Teasing: Verbal Play in Two Mexicano Homes.”
>> In B Schieffelin & E. Ochs (eds.) Language and Socialization Across
>> Cultures. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. (Pp. 199-212)
>>
>> Also, Jennifer Reynolds has done studies on Guatemalan Mayan
>> children teasing each other and learning fighting words, and the
>> ideologies around the definition of "children" and "children in
>> need of protection".
>>
>> As for the movie, I completely I agree with Amy's analysis.
>>
>> For me, I found the movie kind of boring, nothing new, the usual
>> stuff. I was hoping for some parody or turnabout at the end but it
>> did not come. I thought it could have been done by a teenager for a
>> classroom project. Not really a powerful filmaker.
>> But itube itself is an interesting phenomenon, to a degree
>> empowering.
>>
>>
>> Valentina Pagliai
>> Oberlin College
>>
>>
>> On May 1, 2008, at 10:52 PM, Amy Sheldon wrote:
>>
>> I thought about the consequences to the young girl too and found it
>> very troubling. The possible damage to the child actor became a
>> preoccupation in my reaction to the film.
>> Is that preoccupation the effect the film maker was after? I doubt
>> it.
>>
>> It seems that there's a means justifies the end mentality in the
>> film that makes the possible harm to the child *actor* become an
>> issue, when it should not be.
>>
>> What is the artistry of this film? It re-enacts real life in a
>> *raw* way. Is there no way to give the message about the
>> conscription of onlookers to violence to become violent themselves?
>> Who is the audience...children? battered women/persons? It's not
>> a new message either.
>>
>> So I think there's a side story here about the wisdom or aesthetics
>> of film maker's over use of audience shock treatment to make the
>> point.
>> Would the next step be to have the battering become a real event we
>> all are asked to watch for the redeeming value of realizing
>> battering is bad?
>>
>> Should horrible events be told about in an aesthetic frame? This
>> is a discussion that has taken place wrt if and how to
>> contextualize and treat the Holocaust (and other horrific events)
>> in an artistic frame, so that they can be understood and not
>> forgotten.
>> Amy Sheldon
>>
>> On May 1, 2008, at 8:36 PM, Valentina Pagliai wrote:
>>
>> Well,
>> The girl seemed to be having a lot of fun at it. And I suppose I
>> would prefer an awareness of the existence of family violence to a
>> girl misleaded into believing that certain things don't exist
>> (until it happens to them). I feel that it is really cultural, for
>> lack of a better word, the American (but not all Americans)
>> tendency to hide stuff from children. Personally, I feel it is
>> better to make children aware as soon as possible of sexism and
>> oppression, so they can learn to defend themselves.
>> That's my two cents.
>>
>> Valentina Pagliai
>> Oberlin College
>>
>>
>> On May 1, 2008, at 9:04 PM, Campbell, Heather wrote:
>>
>> I must say, I agree with your concerns. Powerful film, but as an
>> early childhood educator, I am extremely conflicted about this.
>> There was a duty of care towards the wellbeing of the young child
>> acting in this film, and I wonder if the possible benefits deriving
>> from the film (that is, raising awareness of domestic violence and
>> its effect upon children) justify the potential harm inflicted upon
>> the child involved.
>>
>> Heather Campbell
>>
>> From: International Gender and Language Association [mailto:GALA-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
>> ] On Behalf Of Sarah Wagner
>> Sent: Friday, 2 May 2008 9:45 AM
>> To: GALA-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG<mailto:GALA-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
>> >
>> Subject: Re: [GALA-L] Daddies and mummies
>>
>> All I can think is, what about this young "actor" who is doing
>> this? What is she thinking as she says all of these horrible
>> things? You can't, even in an acting context, make this sound like
>> "pretend" can you? It's an incredible film, unbelievable (and
>> incredibly important message of course), but I'm so conflicted
>> about the reality of making it.
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Megan Crowhurst <mcrowhurst at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU<mailto:mcrowhurst at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU
>> >>
>> To: GALA-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG<mailto:GALA-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
>> >
>> Sent: Thursday, May 1, 2008 4:09:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: [GALA-L] Daddies and mummies
>>
>> Well, there's a frighteningly powerful message
>> about how kids internalize and learn to reproduce
>> domestic partner abuse. I'm forwarding this to
>> our SafePlace volunteer co-ordinator...
>>
>>
>> At 10:25 PM +0200 5/1/08, Goretty Robles Fernández wrote:
>>> I'm speechless.
>>> http://www.metacafe.com/watch/336489/papas_y_mamas_daddies_mummies/
>>
>>
>> --
>> ~
>> ~
>> ~
>> ~
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> Megan J. Crowhurst, Ph.D.
>> Associate Professor
>>
>> Graduate Advisor, Linguistics
>> All advising email should go to megancrowhurst at gmail.com<mailto:megancrowhurst at gmail.com
>> >
>>
>> Snail mail address:
>>
>> The University of Texas at Austin
>> Dr. Crowhurst
>> Department of Linguistics
>> 1 University Station B5100
>> Austin, TX 78712-5100
>> USA
>>
>> Phone: 512-471-1701
>> Fax: 512-471-4340
>>
>> My home page: http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~crowhurs/index.html<http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/%7Ecrowhurs/index.html
>> >
>> Department home page: http://www.utexas.edu/cola/depts/linguistics/
>> ~
>> ~
>> ~
>> ~
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> ________________________________
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