[gothic-l] The Scandinavian Origin of the Goths

[Bertil Häggman]

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As usual David Salo has not the slightest
proof for his beliefs.

Prokopius mentions the Goetar, and it is possible
that Ptolemaios mentions this South Scandinavian
people as Goutai, which probably at the time was
pronounced Gotae.

In Liber Monstrorum (8th century AD) Huiglacus is
called "Rex Getarum". There was a mix up between
Gotae and Getae in Eastern Europe but there
can be no question of that in relation to the Frisian-
Francian tradition, the Getae (Geats) are the Goetar
(Gautar).

So the first of the Goetar to be mentioned is King Hugilaik.
One needs to go to verse 2200 in Beowulf to read about
the historically proven struggle (around 510 AD?) between
the Svear and the Goetar, which resulted, eventually, much
later in the Svear gaining the upper hand.

In Beowulf there is mention of wars to be expected by the
Geats, and these wars did take place.

As has been pointed out numerous times on this list the Goths
themselves believed they originated in Southern
Scandinavia. Why should the Goths believe the
originated from the pagan North when they could easily
claim much more famous ancestry if this was not
the truth?

Then there is the fact of the linguistical similarity between
Goetar/Gautar, Gutar (from the island of Gotland), Goths
(lat. Goti).

David Salo also seems to believe that geographical distance
is of importance. We know from the history of the Era of
Great Migration that Germanic tribes migrated very long distances.
For instance the Vandals from North Jutland ended up in North
Africa and the early migration of the Cimbri from Jutlandic
Himmerland is an example of several Germanic tribes migrating
over very long distances.

Gothically

Bertil Haggman


>     Regardless of what you think the connection between the Gautar
> (*Gautos) and Goths (*Gutans) was -- and I myself do not believe that there
> was any closer connection between them than between the Goths and any other
> non-East Germanic grouping -- you certainly cannot identify the Goths with
> "Beowulf's Geats".
>     Beowulf was said, in the poem which has been given his name, to be the
> nephew of Hygelac the Geat.  Hygelac (ON Hugleikr; *Hugilaiks) was a
> historical figure, whose death is recorded as occurring c. 521.  The first
> half of Beowulf, Beowulf's killing of Grendel and Grendel's mother, takes
> place not long before this date, when Hygelac is still king of the Geats;
> the second half, Beowulf's fight with the dragon, takes place many decades
> after Hygelac's death.
>     In 521, Amalaric (Amalareiks) was ruling the Visigoths of Spain, and
> Theodoric (Thiudareiks) ruled the Ostrogoths of Italy.  Both tribes were
> fully differentiated in cultural, linguistic, and religious terms from
> their Scandinavian cousins (the Goths were Arian Christians; the Geats and
> other Scandinavian tribes were pagan, and would remain so for centuries).
> They were also, if it is necessary to stress the point, separated by
> hundreds of miles from Scandinavia and surrounded by quite different
> cultures.  While the Geats at this time were still in a "heroic age" so
> remote from the historical record that it was capable of passing into myth,
> the Goths were busily assimilating the far more ancient Greco-Roman culture
> into which they had stumbled, and creating artifacts like the Silver Bible
> which are as artistically and technically superb as they are linguistically
> significant.  That the Gothic renaissance would be cut short in its prime
> should not obscure the enormous cultural gap that existed between the Goths
> and their supposed Scandinavian progenitors at this time.



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