[gothic-l] The Gothic and Eruli: shipbuilding [was proto-vikings]

[Bertil Häggman]

Frank,

Concerning the raids, they are very well documented.
But I haven't arrived at them yet. Sufficient is to say
that in Athens is still the remains of the Eerulic Wall,
as it is called. I have a rather clear photocopy of a
photo.

Here is a few quotes related to the Athenians problems
with the Eruli:

Syncellos: "The Heruli with 500 ships...sailed to the Pontos
took Byzantium and Chrysopolis...and reaching Attica they
attacked Athens, Corinth, Sparta and Argos and overran
all Achaia until the Athenians, ambushing them in rough terrain,
destroyed most of them."

It was indeed a thorough destruction of Athens in 267 AD.
I always thought this was common knowledge, but now
I understand it is not.

The Heruli even managed to change the character of the
Agora for ever. Some structures remained but
others were totally ruined, like Odeion and the great
Hellenistic stoas. Fuzzy?

The first activity of the Athenians after this terrible event
was to refortify the city. A new wall was built just north of
the Acropolis. It runs south of the Stoa of Attalos. It is built almost
entirely of used pieces taken from buildings around the Agora
destroyed by the Eruli in 267 AD. 

As you understand the details of the shipbuilding at the time
is not as well documented as during for instance the 20th
century. As far as I know the Goths and the Eruli probably
used local labor to build the ships. The question "bases",
a modern military term is somewhat ambigious in this
connection. Could you please clarify what you mean by
bases and perhaps give a closer description of such
a base?

I donät really understand the question of direct comparison
of Viking tactics in the 9th centuy and pre-Viking tactics 
in the 3rd century AD. Certainly there must have been a tactical
development over so many years.

I am no expert on the Black Sea but I don't think it matters
very much. If anything might be of importance the Baltic Sea
is probably much rougher than the Black Sea.

Skaal and cheers

Bertil

> The large numbers of ships does suggest that new ships were built, but my 
> question is by whom?  Did the invaders have the ability to coerce the 
> Bosporans to build more ships for them?  Or were they secure enough in their 
> bases to do the construction themselves?  Or were these captured ships 
> (and/or carpenters--there was a lot of slave-raiding going on, as well) from 
> other expeditions?
> 
> And the details of the raids are rather . . . fuzzy.  Is it appropriate to 
> call them "proto-Viking raids," i.e. sail up a river to an unfortified 
> target, wade ashore, take all the stuff they can carry, and sail away before 
> the militia comes--or were they more like mass troop movements facilitated 
> by sea--more like the Normans (or the Viking Great Host in England in 869 . 
> . .)
> 
> It seems to me that they opted for the sea route because the land routes had 
> become too difficult, either to traverse, or to sustain soldiers living off 
> the land.  The Vikins, on the other hand, being coastal Scandinavians 
> (whether sea or river) were pretty much a boat-based people to begin with, 
> and their type of raiding was merely an extension of usual seafaring 
> activity.
> 
> And how does the Black Sea behave compared to the Baltic?  One boat design 
> does not suit all environments.  Something that worked well for the Goths 
> and Heruli in the Baltic might not have been so good in the Black sea for 
> whatever reason.
> 
> Just some thoughts.
> 
> Cheers,
> Frank
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