[gothic-l] Re: The Scandinavian Origin of the Goths and Other Germanic Peoples

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

Bertil,

there is a slight misunderstanding. I do not say that it would 
preclude the Scandinavian origin of the Goths. In fact, I said 
explicitly that the Goths most likely left Scandinavia in the first 
century BC. My statement was targeted at a much earlier time. I am 
saying that most scholars seem to think that Germanic people came to 
Scandinavia in 700-1000 BC. There is linguistic, archaelogical and 
apparently genetic evidence for the  that. (See Cavallo Sforza, 
"History and Geography of human genes" 1994.) This is in tune with 
theories that place the 'origin' of the Germanic people (if one can 
truely speak of origin) to what is now Central Germany.

Dirk




--- In gothic-l at egroups.com, Bertil Häggman <mvk575b at t...> wrote:
> Dirk,
> 
> A detailed review of all sources concerning
> the Goths, both historical, archaelogical and
> linguistic, supports a Scandinavian migration.
> Some late authors, like Nordgren, nelieve there
> might have been three waves of migration: one early
> from Gotland, the main migration around BC and
> a third migration of the Gepids.
> 
> An appearance of Germanic immigrants in
> Scandinavia from 1000 to 700 BC does not,
> as far as I see, exclude the migrations of Goths
> from Gotland and Götaland within the timeframe
> given.
> 
> The genetic evidence seems interesting. Any
> sources? Last year a unique experiment started
> in cooperation between Italian and Jutlandic
> Danish academic institutions to test Cimbrians
> in Itay and Himmerland inhabitants on Jutland
> to compare their DNA. Other such genetic
> research is of interest.
> 
> Gothically
> 
> Bertil
> 
> 
> 
> The difference is that Anthony Appleyard's statement could imply (or 
> leaves open) the possibility of (Indo/Proto etc-) Germanic 
settlement 
> of Scandinavia (possibly from the Russian steppe via Karelia and 
> Finland) at a much earlier time. This allows for the possibility of
> an 
> emergence of  'the Germanic culture' in Scandinavia from where they 
> would have expanded to the continent. 
> 
> My statement precludes such a scenario and  supports theories which 
> state that Germanic people expanded to Scandinavia at a much later 
> date (say between 1000-700BC)from what is now central Germany. There 
> seems to be overwhelming archaelogical, linguistic, and apparently 
> also genetic evidence to support this view. 
> 
> PS: It took me some time to answer to Anthony Appelyard's statement, 
> so you may not have been aware of the preceding exchange.
> 
> Dirk
> 
> 
> --- In gothic-l at egroups.com, Bertil Häggman <mvk575b at t...> wrote:
> > Dirk,
> > 
> > Really cannot see any difference between the two statements.
> > 
> > Gothically
> > 
> > Bertil
> > 
> > > Thinking and reading about your statement below, I find that it
> is 
> not 
> > > very likely that 
> > > 
> > > "a branch of the speakers of the Common Indo-European 
> > > language, 
> > > > spreading gradually from their original home on the steppes of 
> south 
> > > Russia, 
> > > > invaded the south of Scandinavia and became its ruling class, 
> very 
> > > many 
> > > > centuries BC"
> > > 
> > > I read a few papers and I think that the currently accepted
> wisdom 
> is 
> > > that Proto-Germanic people came to Scandinavia via the Jutland 
> route 
> > > about 700 BC, until than a Finnic/Baltic culture with a 
> Finnic/Baltic 
> > > language occupied the Scandinavian peninsula proper. These 
people 
> were 
> > > gradually driven to the far north and east by the Germanic 
> settlers. 
> > > Over the next centuries these settlers developed into various 
> tribes 
> > > probably including the Goths, who than around 100 BC left 
> Scandinavia 
> > > to settle at the mounth of the Vistula.
> > > 
> > > Dirk
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In gothic-l at egroups.com, "Anthony Appleyard" <MCLSSAA2 at f...> 
> > > wrote:
> > > > From: dirk at s... wrote:-
> > > > > ... but it is more likely that proto-Germans moved to 
> > > > > Scandinavia (before Gothic and other tribal identities were 
> > > formed). ...
> > > > 
> > > > Or the speakers of the ancestor of the Common Germanic 
language 
> did 
> > > so. 
> > > > Likeliest, a branch of the speakers of the Common 
Indo-European 
> > > language, 
> > > > spreading gradually from their original home on the steppes of 
> south 
> > > Russia, 
> > > > invaded the south of Scandinavia and became its ruling class, 
> very 
> > > many 
> > > > centuries BC. Over a few centuries they imposed their language 
> and 
> > > suppressed 
> > > > whatever language the natives spoke before.
> > > > 
> > > > Those natives would themselves have had to come in from
> outside, 
> a 
> > > long time 
> > > > before that, when or after the first Homo sapiens came to the 
> area. 
> > > The 
> > > > characteristic features of Nordic peoples would have evolved 
in 
> the 
> > > area:-
> > > >   I saw an experiment on TV once that showed that blue eyes 
see 
> > > better in 
> > > > faint light and brown eyes see better in glare.
> > > >   People need Vitamin D to avoid rickets. The body can make 
its 
> own, 
> > > but one 
> > > > stage needs ultraviolet light. Thus the skin had to evolve as 
> pale 
> > > as possible 
> > > > to let enough sun through it despite clouds and clothes and
> dull 
> > > weather.
> > > > In hotter sunnier lands further south, such things did not 
keep 
> the 
> > > sun off 
> > > > the skin so much.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a 
> blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.
> > > Homepage: http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gothicl/index.html
> > > 
> > >
> 
> 
> 
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